Were the Apostles wrong?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"... this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

When was the resurrected Jesus Christ seen physically coming back to the earth on/in a cloud?

Ah, yes, the "cloud" question. This has been talked about here quit a few times. I hope you don't mind 'recycling'... Here is one from the past:

Originally Posted by TK Burk

In Acts 1, angels told 500 disciples that the way they saw Jesus ascend into to heaven would be the same “manner” in which they would see Him come again. Consequently, some men teach this passage refers to a literal physical return of Jesus to the earth. But when we examine this verse, we find its emphasis is not on Jesus’ physical body, but on the “manner” in which He ascended. Let’s begin by looking the wording of the occurrence as recorded in the following verses:

Acts 1:9-11
(9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and A CLOUD received him out of their sight.
(10) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
(11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Bible does not waste words. When it expressly mentions an item or an issue, it usually does so to emphasis a deeper understanding found in the text. Luke emphasizes a “cloud” receiving Jesus, and Jesus coming again in “like manner.” The Bible always interprets itself. So, when a person understands how “clouds” are used in the Old Testament, they will understand how they are to be understood in Jesus’ coming. When looking at the Old Testament we find the prophetic imagery for clouds always is associated with God’s “POWER” and “GLORY.”

IMAGERY, TYPE AND SHADOW, AND SYMBOLISM

The Bible is filled with symbolism. The writers of the Old Testament spoke in language intent on filling their audience with a visual images, which were to be fulfilled by their then coming Messiah. They spoke of symbolisms such as lambs and wolves, sacrificed animals and Levitical priests, unmolded clay and potter’s wheels, mountain tops and deep valleys, and days of rest and days of war. These, like all others, were intended to convey various images of Jesus and His Kingdom.

Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English defines “symbol” as: (1) The sign or representation of any moral thing by the images or properties of natural things. Thus the lion is the symbol of courage; the lamb is the symbol of meekness or patience. Symbols are of various kinds, as types, enigmas, parables, fables, allegories, emblems, hieroglyphics, &c. (2) An emblem or representation of something else. Thus in the eucharist, the bread and wine are called symbols of the body and blood of Christ.

John the Baptist referenced such symbolism when he said, “…Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). His statement referred to the imagery found in Isaiah’s prophecy: “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7). Isaiah spoke of the shadow and John spoke of the substance. Together we have a better understand of Jesus’ work for mankind.

The way in which imagery is used in the Old Testament sets the precedent in which it is to be used in the New Testament. This thereby gives us a clear understanding of both what was foretold and its fulfillment. So, the subject of Jesus coming in a cloud is easily understood by studying the usage of the imagery of clouds in the Bible. With this in mind, let’s now look at how clouds were first used in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets.

CLOUDS REPRESENT GOD’S POWER

These scriptures describe God coming in a “CLOUD” to bring judgment against those in rebellion to Him.

Isaiah 19:1
Jeremiah 4:13
Ezekiel 30:3
Ezekiel 30:18-19

These do not speak of actual clouds, but instead of God acting in POWER to deliver His judgment! Also notice that each of these has God using a heathen army for His sword of wrath. The importance of this will be clearer when we later look into what “coming” Luke was referring to in Acts 1.

CLOUDS REPRESENT GOD’S GLORY

These verses use “CLOUDS” as imagery of God’s GLORY.

Nahum 1:2
Zephaniah 1:14-17
Joel 2:1-9

These were not to be understood as “literal” clouds. The mention of these clouds was to give the reader a visual picture of God’s glory. This is the same ‘glory’ Joshua experienced while remaining in the Tabernacle of God.

Exodus 33:10-11

Did Joshua stand in the Tabernacle in a LITERAL cloud? What does this CLOUD represent? Was it just a puffy gaseous formation, or something more?

Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible – Exodus 33:9
The cloudy pillar descended - This very circumstance precluded the possibility of deception. The cloud descending at these times, and at none others, was a full proof that it was miraculous, and a pledge of the Divine presence. It was beyond the power of human art to counterfeit such an appearance; and let it be observed that all the people saw this, Exo 33:10. How many indubitable and irrefragable proofs of its own authenticity and Divine origin does the Pentateuch contain!

When seeing this cloud the people took it as seeing a manifestation of God’s glory.

From these Old Testament examples we see that a reader of the Bible would already understand that the imagery of clouds refer to God’s glory and His coming judgment against the enemies of His people. Now let’s look at how the New Testament uses “clouds.”

Part 1 of 2

[TK Burk]

Here is the second part of that discussion about "clouds":

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Part 2 of 2



CLOUDS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

The New Testament is filled with its writers explaining how the Old Testament’s types and shadows were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Here is an example:

Colossians 2:16-17
(See also Heb 8:5, Heb 9:9, 11, 23, Heb 10:1)

One example of this is how Joshua’s “cloud” (Ex 33:9-11) is reminiscent of the cloud mentioned in the Mount of Transformation.

Matthew 17:3-5

Without doubt, Peter, James, and John would have been familiar with the prophetic imagery of a “cloud.” Consequently, they were not in a fog as to what this visitation implied. With this knowledge, it is understandable why Peter was so stirred and why Jesus did not want them to tell of this occurrence until after His crucifixion (See also Mark 9:7; Luke 9:34, 35).

JESUS COMING IN THE CLOUDS

If you’ve ever preached or heard someone preach a message on biblical imagery, types and shadows, or symbolism, then there’s nothing difficult about understanding what the Bible means concerning ‘Jesus’ coming in the clouds.’

The entire Old Testament foretold of Jesus. The New Testament tells us that He fulfilled all that was written of Him. So if the Old Testament uses CLOUDS in the manner we’ve shown, why shouldn’t this same meaning be used in reference to Jesus’ coming? Let’s look now at verse where Jesus is using such imagery for His coming.

Mark 14:62

Now, we know that there is only One God. Therefore, Jesus’ could not have literally meant He would someday be “sitting” on a literal “right hand” of another deity. Since this is the case, Jesus’ statement to the High Priest must be seen as biblical imagery. Both the Old and New Testament uses “right hand” as imagery of ‘power’ and ‘special status’ (See Gen 48:13-18; Exo 15:6, 12; 29:20; Deu 33:2; 1Ki 2:19; 22:19; 1Ch 6:39; 2Ch 18:18; Psa 16:8, 11; 17:7; 18:35; 20:6; 21:8; 44:3; 45:4, 9; 48:10; 60:5; 63:8; 73:23; 74:11; 77:10; 78:54; 80:15, 17; 89:13, 25, 42; 91:7; 98:1; 108:6; 109:6, 31; 110:1, 5; 118:15, 16; 121:5; 138:7; 139:10; Ecc 10:2; Isa 41:10, 13; 45:1; 48:13; 54:3; 62:8; 63:12; Jer 22:24; Lam 2:3, 4; Dan 12:7; Hab 2:16; Zec 3:1; Mat 20:21, 23; 22:44; 25:33, 34; 26:64; 27:29, Mark 10:37, 40; 12:36; 14:62; 16:19; Luke 20:42; 22:69; Acts 2:25, 33, 34; 5:31; 7:55, 56; Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3, 13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1Pe 3:22; Rev 1:16, 20; 2:1; 5:1, 7; 13:16).

This “right hand” imagery is easily seen in the following verses:

Psalms 110:1
Matthew 22:42-46

“The LORD (God) said to my Lord (Messiah)….” This is a prophecy that foretold of the exaltation of Jesus Christ. To be placed at the right hand of a king was to be placed at the status of the King’s favor and power. This being said of Jesus placed Him in that respective position (See Mar 16:19; Act 7:55; Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20; Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12).

As a result, if Jesus’ statement about “right hand” in Mark 14:62 is biblical imagery, then He also must have also used biblical imagery about Him “coming in clouds.” If we use the already established symbolic language for “clouds” from the Old Testament, we see Jesus was saying that He was “coming” in God’s “judgment” and “glory.” The following are other New Testament prophecies that speak of this same type coming of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:27
Matthew 24:30
Matthew 26:64
Mark 13:26

The “Son of man” is a synonym for Jesus Christ. In the above verses, we find Jesus’ coming in “clouds” is aligned with “power” and “glory.” Such a coming did occur in AD70, which was a time when Jesus was prophesied to come to bring judgment against Jerusalem and her Temple. During that time, Jesus did come in the POWER of God. This coming fulfilled many prophecies about a “soon coming” judgment that was to happen in the same generation that saw Jesus crucified. This fulfillment taking place exactly as foretold by the prophets, apostles, and Jesus Christ did show the world God’s GLORY.

The Book of Revelation is John’s detailed view of this same AD70 coming and judgment. In his writings we also find similar language about Jesus’ coming in a “cloud.”

Revelation 1:7
Revelation 14:16, 19

These passages both refer to occurrences that took place during Jesus’ judgment against those in rebellion to His kingdom. This was to come to pass during a time while those who “pierced” (crucified) Jesus were still alive. Jesus was killed in AD30. A biblical generation is 40 years. When you add the AD30 and 40 years together you get AD70. That time would see both a harvest (resurrection) of Jesus’ saints and a crushing of those rebellious against Him and His Church. All of this came to pass—in detail—in AD70.

Jesus’ AD70 judgment was done through the Roman Armies of General Titus. God used that army as His own sword of vengeance. This is exactly the same thing He did in the accounts of Him coming in the CLOUDS against His afore mentioned Old Testament enemies.

Though there are numerous studies and charts claiming Acts 1:9-11 emphasizes a physical coming of Jesus Christ on a day sometime at the “end of the world,” nowhere do we find this taught in the Bible. What we do find is a harmonious agreement that “clouds” are both prophetic imagery speaking of God’s “glory” and “judgment,” and that the “clouds” and Jesus’ coming “in like ‘manner’ as they saw Him go,” foretold of His JUDGMENT and GLORY during the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Here is the second part of that discussion about "clouds":

While I am generally sympathetic to your position, and I can understand "clouds" as "imagery" - how does the coming of Titus Flavius Vespasianus equate to "this same Jesus..."?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by pelathais

While I am generally sympathetic to your position, and I can understand "clouds" as "imagery" - how does the coming of Titus Flavius Vespasianus equate to "this same Jesus..."?

Thanks for the reply.

Please, remember as you read this post to take into account the verses I gave that show the meaning of the imagery of "clouds" in the Bible.

The Bible prophetically describes the Roman Army as being Jesus’ Army. This is in agreement with the parables in Matthew 21 and Matthew 22. In these Jesus said He was the One who would bring judgment against those who rejected His New Covenant. Theses verses declare it is Jesus who sends the Roman Army to destroy the rebellious their city.

Matthew 21:40-41
(40) When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
(41) They say unto him, HE WILL miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Matthew 22:7
(7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth HIS ARMIES, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

God using physical armies to bring judgment is found in the times He judged Israel for their sins. During those times He used armies such as Ai, Philistines, Babylonians, Egyptians, and Assyrians. God using heathen armies is also found in the judgment and destruction of Babylon (See Isa 13:9-11). This prophecy says it is the LORD who would come to bring this judgment, but the Bible also tells us that the Medes and Persians were the sword that carried it out. God said that Cyrus, the King of Persia, a heathen, was His “shepherd” (Isa 44:28). God used Cyrus to fulfill prophecies for both His judgment against Babylon and His timing for Daniel’s 70 Weeks. You see the progression of these in: Isa 44:24-28, Isa 45:1; Dan 5:6, Dan 5:28; Isa 45:2-3, Isa 45:13; 2 Chr 36:21; Ezr 1:1-4. The same thing happened in the judgment against Egypt (See Eze 32:7-8). There God said He would be the One to bring this judgment, but the Bible says it was a heathen army that was His sword of vengeance.

As the King of kings, Jesus – alone – places men and women into leadership (see Rom 13:1-3; 1 Pet 2:13-17; Col 1:16-17). Cyrus and Titus are no different. Both were tools that the Lord God used to wield His plan in the Earth, and because God was the One using them as such, in essence, God was the One doing the work.


Also, I dealt with this somewhat in my last response in the debate Bro. Anderson and I were having here on AFF. I respoded to him 04-28-2009, and he has yet to answer. This link goes to that post. CLICK HERE

[helen_febus]

Originally Posted by Sam

what is the source of that quote?

____________
Brother here is the promised source.

A Collection of Evidence Against the

Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm

God bless,

Sister Helen Febus

[helen_febus]

Originally Posted by helen_febus

____________
Brother here is the promised source.

A Collection of Evidence Against the

Traditional Wording of Matthew 28:19

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/matt2819-willis.htm

God bless,

Sister Helen Febus

___________

Bump

[Justin]

Originally Posted by helen_febus

___________

Bump

You know, when you add that "___________" above your post, it looks like it's blending in to your signature.

[helen_febus]

Originally Posted by Justin

You know, when you add that "___________" above your post, it looks like it's blending in to your signature.

--------------------
I don't understand, however, I bumped this thread because I think it to be important.

Here is something else on Matt 28:19

http://english.sdaglobal.org/research/mt2819.htm

God Bless All, in Jesus Name.

Sister Helen Febus