Are we really New Testament Church???

[A.W. Bowman]

Thank you jaamez - Well stated.

Jim (Sam) has noted on one of his threads here that there is a vast difference between receiving the Holy Ghost and walking in the power of that Spirit. (See Galatians 5:25 and John 20:21-24)

In this day and age of super ministers grabbing the spotlight and siting on thrones elevated on stages for all to marvel at, the true ministers are often those who do not seek the approval of men. We do not see healing such as performed at the Gate Beautiful of the Temple simply because very few believers are willing to risk the possibility of nothing happing! "What if nothing happens? I'll look like a fool!"

There are two sins at play here. The first is unbelief and the second one is pride.

Even today there are people (believers and non-believers alike) being raised from the dead, cancers being healed and limbs bing straightened. However, most of these events take place in "third-world" countries, not in our rational, pragmatic, and unbelieving Christian communities in the western world. We have preachers, teachers, and other such ministers who fail to minister to the body of Christ, rather many desire to be ministered unto. When such leaders require that all manifestations of the Spirit be approved and controlled by them - the Spirit is quenched, the gathered body is dead and must wait upon the "approved demonstration" of God's Spirit by the authorized few. What we witness in a stunted body, immature and dysfunctional.

What we are left with are those who seek only after signs and wonders (even in the Last Church of the Holy Feel Good) and those who have to have everything figured out, using all of their acquired rational abilities and talents in the insane attempt to understand and define God according to what it is we want Him to be (become a member of The Latter-day School of Christian Religious Philosophy and Cook Book of the Month Club).

We have outlived the days where "feeling the Holy Ghost" is the purpose of a service - that will no longer sustain us. Nor will trying to "get everything religiously right" (the correct reciting of religious mantras and incantations, performing impotent rituals and the like). It is time to combine (to add to) our living in the Spirit with our walk in the Spirit. It is time for all of us to grow up in the Spirit and mature in our spiritual essence.

For too long we have survived on platitudes instead of substance. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why the Church of Jesus Christ is not under a notable attack here in the west (at least not yet), like it is in the rest of the world. We have not been tested - yet - our time is at hand. Looking for a great world-wide revival? Also look rather for the great falling away when the times of trials and testing come fully upon us.

Let us grow up. Let take responsibility for our own salvation - work out what needs to be worked out - even with fear and trembling. Being a disciple of any spiritual leader (preacher, teacher, minister, etc.) will not take the place of being a true disciple of Jesus Christ. We all need to get that stright in our minds and hearts.

[A.W. Bowman]

To the question: Are we a N.T. church? Only those saints that do what the N.T. church did, believed and acted on the same principles and worked in the same Spirit and followed the same "laws of God" that the initial church did, will be worthy of being called "Apostolic". Honestly? We just like the name, we really don't want to be bothered with the doing.

[Dordrecht]

I believe that miracles are happening today just as they were happening 2000 years ago.

Some might say :"Well, that's your point of view, but this is mine".

The thing with a miracle is, that it brings people to a decision.
In fact it settles the issue one way or the other.

A miracle also reveals to people their relationship to God.
A miracle also creates new hope.

I believe we still have access to the miraculous power of the Name of Jesus.
We also have access to His Word, which brings changes in our lives.

There's nothing new under the sun. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
His word says so and nothing can change that.

[Michael The Disciple]

Let us not be to quick to write off having "all things common".

42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43: And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44: And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:42-45

Isnt this Acts 2? Is this not a very foundational chapter? Dont people try to change the meaning of the plan of salvation in the very verses just before this?

Is it not worth considering?

Its not the only time its mentioned.

32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet. Acts 4:32-37

What did Paul mean when he wrote this?

9: For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
10: And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11: Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12: For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13: For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14: But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15: As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack. 2 Cor. 8:9-15

This looks like its in the mouth of two or three witnesses dont it?

Is there any interpretation besides it was a temporary thing in Jerusalem to feed those coming for the feast?

[Dordrecht]

http://www.nfb.ca/film/the_hutterites/?ac=g+hutterites

Canadian Hutterite documentary.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This looks like its in the mouth of two or three witnesses dont it?

Is there any interpretation besides it was a temporary thing in Jerusalem to feed those coming for the feast?

Short answer: Yes. But to get to the additional interpretation(s) must take all of the N.T. writings and place them in the context of the first century church history, and why the church in Jerusalem was notability different from all of the rest of the established churches.

When, where, why, and how was this church established?
What was its purpose and how did it accomplish that purpose?
Who were the members of the church? Its leaders?
What was the relationship of this church to the rest of the assemblies?
What happened to the church in Jerusalem?
What was its role in God's plan for the salvation of mankind?

Now, take all of the N.T. writings and evaluate them with these questions in mind.

What picture emerges from this mixture?

For those who would like to push there studies further - what was it about the history of Jerusalem and its Hebrew church that the Gentile church of the Romans found so intolerable?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Let us not be to quick to write off having "all things common".

42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43: And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44: And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45: And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:42-45

Isnt this Acts 2? Is this not a very foundational chapter? Dont people try to change the meaning of the plan of salvation in the very verses just before this?

Is it not worth considering?

Its not the only time its mentioned.

32: And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
33: And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34: Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35: And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
36: And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
37: Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet. Acts 4:32-37

What did Paul mean when he wrote this?

9: For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
10: And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11: Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
12: For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13: For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
14: But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15: As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack. 2 Cor. 8:9-15

This looks like its in the mouth of two or three witnesses dont it?

Is there any interpretation besides it was a temporary thing in Jerusalem to feed those coming for the feast?

The book of Acts is essentially a historical document. It expresses historical events as they unfolded. We see that the Jerusalem church had all things common and combined all that they owned to stabilize the early church by seeing to it that the needs of the people were adequately addressed, not to mention the needs of the ministry (my assumption here). We don't see this happening everywhere a church was established.

Now the reference in I Corinthians needs to be in context. The Epistles are not "creeds" or generalized list of "how to's". They are letters written to certain audiences to address specific issues. There was a famine in Judea. Paul was telling the Corinthian church that by giving relief offerings during this famine they were blessing the body of Christ. Notice what Paul says....

14: But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15: As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack. 2 Cor. 8:14-15

This principle came into play because "now at this time" the church in Jerusalem faced a famine. Notice that Paul had to give these instructions in the wake of this famine...illustrating that the idea of relief was something they weren't practicing prior to this.

We do the same thing today. When churches were hit hard by Katrina we took up offerings to help them in time of need, establishing an equality by bearing each others burdens, allowing our abundance to be a supply for their want. So that in the future their abundance might become supply for our want when we are in need.

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by jaamez

Correction:
We DO have the power! Unfortunately, we also have an identity crisis. Since we don't really understand who we are, we also end up not using the power and authority we've been given.



Acts 1.8 - Jesus speaking...
"But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..."

Without miracles of healing the Christian Church never would have made the first imprint of our risen Savior on the world.
We can have our churches, preach sermons, do religious things, but without manifesting the true nature of Christ by preaching and teaching His Word, healing the sick, winning the lost, and doing miracles in Jesus' name we barely make an imprint at all on our world.

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok I guess another beautiful and unique thing in the real New Testament Church was just for that time. You know like baptism in Jesus name. Like the gift of the Holy Ghost. Like healing and miracles. Like the head covering.

According to Apostolic Preterists even the coming of Christ has passed away.

So what is the modern day Apostolic Church have to offer pray tell?

Nice to have all the doctrinal questions figured out anyway.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ok I guess another beautiful and unique thing in the real New Testament Church was just for that time. You know like baptism in Jesus name. Like the gift of the Holy Ghost. Like healing and miracles. Like the head covering.

According to Apostolic Preterists even the coming of Christ has passed away.

So what is the modern day Apostolic Church have to offer pray tell?

Nice to have all the doctrinal questions figured out anyway.

Bro...I think you're jumping to extremes. A lot of people do. They think it's either a mandate or it's irrelevant and strictly for the days of the Apostles. Regarding this subject, when I showed how Paul was focused on things, "now at this time", I wasn't meaning to say that I believed that this was something strictly for their time. What Paul was talking about when he wrote, "now at this time", was the famine. In times of great growth, trouble, famine, hardship, crisis, churches and individual congregations need to come together and have all things common. We still do. Last year we had some major power outages and wind damage here in Ohio. Well, when that happened many of us converged on the church to repair it. Then we shared tools, equipment, generators, food, vehicles, watever was needed to see to it that we all got through that period of time ok. I didn't own a chainsaw...but I had one within a half hour that day (lent to me by a brother) because I needed one.

No one means that it was strictly for their time...it's just circumstantial. When faced with similar circumstances today...we pretty much do the same thing.