Is the pastor the modern day Moses?

[shag]

Like I once told the brother n law very probable future assistant Pastor to be to the Pastor that became the Pastor thru the retiring of his dad as Pastor, "its more like a 1 fold than 5 fold" . I could've added " via the bloodline" as well, but didn't.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

There is just one problem God did not give pastors for the equiping of the saints for their own ministerial work God gave apostles,prophets,evanvelist,and Pastor/teachers. Yet we bring this down to just pastors and them give them overal control of a church. Where are the apostles the prophets the evangelist pastor/teachers. these were all given to the local assembley.

You are right. The biggest problem in this area is the usage of terms that we have in America. We call everyone who holds a position in a church a "Pastor" and everyone who travels an "evangelist" and every missionary an "Apostle".

These are ministry gifts...there are many "pastors" who actually function in the anointing of a Prophet or Apostle even thought they are referred to as Pastors. There are many "evangelists" whose gifting is really that of a teacher.

The bigger problem is that people don't understand these gifts and how they function

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Ah go back and restudy OT without your preconcived notions no offence intended.

No offense taken...for some reason error has never offended me.

Your assumption is an assumption that every person on this and other forums make. That if someone holds to any belief that they approach the Bible with preconceived or traditional thought.

As for me, I am more interested in what the Word says (not saying that I have a handle on everything) but my preconception is, "What did you say God, not what do I want You to have said."

I can honestly say that I have much study in the OT, whether we agree or not, well that's a different subject.

God did not want or intend for man to have to have a go between him. He wanted to speak directly to the people.

Good news. We agree here. Very clear in the Bible. The problem is you are missing a lot of the parameters of God's working. For example, all that Paul talked about in relations to the "body." While YES in the natural body the foot receives instructions from the head, it cannot function independently.

God did give these ministry gives for the equipping of the saints...read Eph 4. They have a purpose...not as Lords...not as intermediaries..but there is a purpose for them.

Because of their purpose, you and I won't reach our purpose without them.

But the people did not want to listen to the voice of God they wanted Moses to talk to God and they said they would obey.

Again you are correct here and unfortunately this is also true today. People don't want to listen to God they want to come to church and feel good about themselves. Then on the other side of the equation there are those who proclaim to be listening to God, but they haven't got a clue how to hear God's voice or distinguish God's voice from their own voice or the voice of the enemy.

God will never lead contrary to His Word. Not our interpretation of His Word, but what He has said. We've all got opinions on this Word. Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has a couple and they usually stink.

Futher study will show that God raised up a prophet when the people had backslid. But the prophet was not a ruler he was a messenger for that time in Isreals history.

There is a difference between an OT prophet and a NT prophet, their purposes and God's manner in dealing with people are different. Your statement here shows you don't understand this. So as you said I would encourage you to "further study"

It has been and always will be the desire of God to rule in a individuals life.

Again, correct but not complete. Your statement seems to make one think that God going to individually deal with all people on an individual basis. While there is truth in the individual relationship that individual relationship will bring into a corporate relationship with the Body -- here is just one of many scriptures:

Rom 12:5
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. KJV

We have a responsibility to one another and there are those among us gifted in areas that allow us to become further equipped

Note when Isreal wanted a king Samual was hurt but God told him that Isreal had not refused Samual but had refused him. Even the preist of OT authoritive position.

Yeah...it's apparent you have a deep understanding the OT and God's system. What did man refuse in refusing God? His system of how he judged and led Israel. Hmmm, seems like that same problem exists today

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

No offense taken...for some reason error has never offended me.

I am going to underline my response because when I Italicize everything ital.

Your assumption is an assumption that every person on this and other forums make. That if someone holds to any belief that they approach the Bible with preconceived or traditional thought.

As for me, I am more interested in what the Word says (not saying that I have a handle on everything) but my preconception is, "What did you say God, not what do I want You to have said."

I can honestly say that I have much study in the OT, whether we agree or not, well that's a different subject.

I agree we have the same philosophy of looking at scripture. I am not locked into my beliefs to the point that if God should show me I am wrong I am not ashamed to admit it. I appologize for assuming you have preconceived ideas. I am finding out that many on the forum have stepped out of their traditions and preconsived ideas. Thank God for that.

Good news. We agree here. Very clear in the Bible. The problem is you are missing a lot of the parameters of God's working. For example, all that Paul talked about in relations to the "body." While YES in the natural body the foot receives instructions from the head, it cannot function independently.

Ah yes but who is the Head?

God did give these ministry gives for the equipping of the saints...read Eph 4. They have a purpose...not as Lords...not as intermediaries..but there is a purpose for them.

Because of their purpose, you and I won't reach our purpose without them.

"They" is the primary word here, And I won't argue their purpose we agree on that.

Again you are correct here and unfortunately this is also true today. People don't want to listen to God they want to come to church and feel good about themselves. Then on the other side of the equation there are those who proclaim to be listening to God, but they haven't got a clue how to hear God's voice or distinguish God's voice from their own voice or the voice of the enemy.

God will never lead contrary to His Word. Not our interpretation of His Word, but what He has said. We've all got opinions on this Word. Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has a couple and they usually stink.

I couldn't have said it better myself. But many don't listen or know the voice of God for their pastor gives the impression they have the hand or voice of God and if you don't obey them your in rebelion... is it any wonder more don't get beyond their initial salvation? I try to cause people get back into the word and to find a personal relationship so the learn to hear Gods voice for themself.

There is a difference between an OT prophet and a NT prophet, their purposes and God's manner in dealing with people are different. Your statement here shows you don't understand this. So as you said I would encourage you to "further study"

Oh I understand the differance and know the ministry of the prophet in NT I used the example of OT prophet for his role as voice of God in OT.
Again, correct but not complete. Your statement seems to make one think that God going to individually deal with all people on an individual basis. While there is truth in the individual relationship that individual relationship will bring into a corporate relationship with the Body -- here is just one of many scriptures:

Rom 12:5
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. KJV

We have a responsibility to one another and there are those among us gifted in areas that allow us to become further equipped

Exactly we individualy make up the body but who is the head? Again as Eph:4 say God gave some in the Body to be apostles prophets evangelist pastor/teachers for the... again I feel each church (for a better word) should have as many of these working in the assembley together for the equiping of the saints for the work of the Ministry.
Yeah...it's apparent you have a deep understanding the OT and God's system. What did man refuse in refusing God? His system of how he judged and led Israel. Hmmm, seems like that same problem exists today

LOL how true you are it seems to me we see more eye to eye than I first thought