Is God judging America

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Maybe those in Kentucky should have been praying more! I do think that could be a problem!

My origional question is whether some view what is happening in this country as judgment? Because of the amount of abortions happening.

Then why are the abortionists enjoying the "fruit" of their "labors" while God is just messing with the Kentuckians and jerking them around about their prayer lives?

Certainly abortion is a greater evil then "not praying enough."

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Some balance: after the last glaciation ended around 10,000 years ago the climate changed so suddenly that huge dust storms were spawned across North America. The dust storms were so bad that they laid down dust several feet thick in some places along the Atlantic seaboard such as around Chesapeke Bay.

These storms were so destructive that the "mega fauna" were all wiped out. Woolly mammoths, mastodons, camels and even horses along with giant ground sloths, sabertooth cats and dire wolves.

Who sinned to bring on that devastation?

10,000 years ago? What Bible did you get that out of you... you... PAGAN!

I guess what we are looking at is whether someone literally believes the Word, or just believes that these things just happen!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

10,000 years ago? What Bible did you get that out of you... you... PAGAN!

I guess what we are looking at is whether someone literally believes the Word, or just believes that these things just happen!

But you're just making things up. And when someone presses you to try and make some sense you start blaming the prayer lives of people you've never even met.

I suggest you take some time out for both prayer and Bible study. Then you might begin to see how ridiculous your self righteousness and name calling is.

There was mega fauna in North America - now it's all gone. Your comic books give you simplistic "answers" but those "answers" don't stand the test of time. I'd rather hold to the Rock than to the 200 year old traditions of men that you're trying to sell.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by pelathais

But you're just making things up. And when someone presses you to try and make some sense you start blaming the prayer lives of people you've never even met.

I suggest you take some time out for both prayer and Bible study. Then you might begin to see how ridiculous your self righteousness and name calling is.

There was mega fauna in North America - now it's all gone. Your comic books give you simplistic "answers" but those "answers" don't stand the test of time. I'd rather hold to the Rock than to the 200 year old traditions of men that you're trying to sell.

Pelathais, I meant no personal offense with that pagan bit. I did mean it as a joke thus the laughing face. Please forgive that.

I do think that was a little hard also on your return so we are even. I did not see any reference to your prayer life. Was that on this thread? If so, forgive me.

Getting back to the discussion.

As far as the flora and fauna, I did not bring that up, you did. But I will happily talk about that also. Always ready to examine new things.

Let me gently remind you that my origional question was regarding the judgment of God for abortion. Not whether all droughts, meteors, extinctions, and etc were caused by sin.

I believe that some things are just cyclic. The heating and cooling of the earth and other natural cycles.

I have also been looking at the old earth vs the new earth studies and have many questions.

Please again forgive my flat attempt at humor. Nothing personal intended.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Pelathais, I meant no personal offense with that pagan bit. I did mean it as a joke thus the laughing face. Please forgive that.

I do think that was a little hard also on your return so we are even. I did not see any reference to your prayer life. Was that on this thread? If so, forgive me.

Getting back to the discussion.

As far as the flora and fauna, I did not bring that up, you did. But I will happily talk about that also. Always ready to examine new things.

Let me gently remind you that my origional question was regarding the judgment of God for abortion. Not whether all droughts, meteors, extinctions, and etc were caused by sin.

I believe that some things are just cyclic. The heating and cooling of the earth and other natural cycles.

I have also been looking at the old earth vs the new earth studies and have many questions.

Please again forgive my flat attempt at humor. Nothing personal intended.

No need to ask forgiveness. I did bring up the "flora and fauna" thing because it represent a much worse cataclysm - but one that we can't really pin on the activity of any human being; righteous or unrighteous. It was just a catastrophe that happened.

Given that we live in a world where these catastrophes occur from time to time, I find it hard to "blame" anyone when bad things happen. Bad stuff happens all of the time and rather than pointing fingers at our neighbors or pointing them at God, we should seek to justify God (Job 32:1-5) and relieve the suffering of our neighbors.

As far as the abortion stats, they are horrific - in that we agree. But the judgment of God is a subtle and difficult thing to discern. Perhaps only the Last Judgment will suffice for some crimes.

[Aquila]

In American our problems are primarily financial. If this is a judgment from God he's attacking our financial institutions. Here's something nobody is considering...the Bible says...

Ezekiel 16:49-50
"49Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. "

Isaiah 10:1-3
"1Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;
2To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!
3And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?"

Ezekiel 22:29,31
" 29The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.31Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD."

Jeremiah 5:28-29
"28They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge. 29Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? "

James 5:1-6
"1Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

If God is judging America, I propose it is because we as a society have scorned the poor, the needy, the widows, the orphans, and the strangers. We hail and praise policies that favor the rich and the powerful. We worship politicians who are hirelings for ENRON and countless other powerful companies that fleece the public trust and defraud their employees of fair wages and pensions. Companies that run factories overseas where the working conditions are substandard and their employees are essentially "slave labor." When a program that helps over a thousand elderly people barely surviving on their retirements or Social Security to buy groceries...just to facilitate Federal tax cuts for those making over $200,000 a year and companies like ENRON; can we expect God to just sit buy and do nothing???

[Aquila]

More to consider...

Deuteronomy 15:9
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.

Deuteronomy 24:15
At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Job 34:28
So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.

Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

In American our problems are primarily financial. If this is a judgment from God he's attacking our financial institutions. Here's something nobody is considering...the Bible says...


...If God is judging America, I propose it is because we as a society have scorned the poor, the needy, the widows, the orphans, and the strangers.

Spoken like a true Lefty - Blame America First!

I will counter this accusation by asserting that no nation in the history of the planet has taken care of its "poor, the needy, the widows, the orphans, and the strangers" like the United States has. Between 1964 and 1984 more than $4 Trillion dollars was taken from the "rich" and given to the "poor." This was the greatest redistribution of income in the history of the world. And the redistribution never stopped. Reagan tried to get a handle on the rate of growth but the programs never were cut.

Originally Posted by Aquila

We hail and praise policies that favor the rich and the powerful. We worship politicians who are hirelings for ENRON and countless other powerful companies that fleece the public trust and defraud their employees of fair wages and pensions.

Lemme see, the fraud at Enron resulted in criminal indictments. How can you say those "policies" were "hailed" and "praised" when the perps were arrested as soon as the "policies" were found out?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Companies that run factories overseas where the working conditions are substandard and their employees are essentially "slave labor."

Help me out here, what US company is using "slave labor" overseas? Name them so you and me can bust 'em and rat them out to the Justice Department.

Originally Posted by Aquila

When a program that helps over a thousand elderly people barely surviving on the retirements or Social Security buy groceries to facilitate Federal tax cuts for those making over $200,000 a year and companies like ENRON can we expect God to just sit buy and do nothing???

No "programs" have ever been cut (and you couldn't even bring yourself to say it outright) to "facilitate" tax cuts. It's a proven fact - tax rate cuts result in net revenue gains for the Treasury. There's no need to cut programs - indeed no Federal program like you describe has ever been cut. The rate of increase may have been temporarily throttled at times, but never cut.

Every President from JFK to Bill Clinton and George W. Bush proved that you don't need to cut programs to raise money. Just cut the tax rate. If you want more net dollars for your earmarks and pork then cut tax rates.

I ask, how can God judge innocent people for things that you make up?

[Aquila]

I find it strange how we focus on abortion and homosexual sins, when these things have always been with every society. But we ignore the clear Scriptures that speak of social justice and the rights of the poor, needy, widows, orphans, and strangers.

Cutting programs that help feed the poor and the needy is the same as a King in Ancient Israel allowing land owners to run gleaners off their crops and neglect the poor tithe to line their own pockets with profit. The book of Amos addressed this with fearsome words of warning. Why do we ignore the fact that God will judge a nation swiftly for economic injustice???

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Aquila

More to consider...

Deuteronomy 15:9
Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.

Deuteronomy 24:15
At his day thou shalt give him his hire, neither shall the sun go down upon it; for he is poor, and setteth his heart upon it: lest he cry against thee unto the LORD, and it be sin unto thee.

Job 34:28
So that they cause the cry of the poor to come unto him, and he heareth the cry of the afflicted.

Proverbs 21:13
Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

I like it Aquila. That is what I was wondering, how others think about the situation.

Also thanks to Pela.