Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

what about the cultures where they grow up running around naked? are we to go there and change them and make them dress like us? which is what a lot of missionaries used to do. You suddenly had to change your life style to be saved. You had to dress like the missionaries to be saved. These people were living like their culture. So if your culture were to run around naked would that be wrong of them once they became 'saved'?

Good question, bible does speak of modest apparel, does it not? No culture can be allowed to violate scripture. Scripture first then culture.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Have you ever been curious how the First Church regarded standards, holiness and living in a pagan culture?

Well this is a testimony by a Disciple of Polycarp named Mathetes, who most likely wrote this between 100-140AD.

I think to be an eye opener and will likely change your perspective on how the early church related to and lived in a pagan world. I highlighted some parts that I thought would be of interest to our diverse forum.

It was titled "The Manner of Christians"

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking [281] method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. [282] They have a common table, but not a common bed. [283] They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. [284] They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. [285] They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. [286] They are poor, yet make many rich; [287] they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; [288] they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.

Actually Keith, if you think they had liberal tendencies.... You better keep reading because the did not look upon makeup, jewelry and many other things in a positive manner and that is pretty consistent across the board.

Also culture never negates the Word and modesty. Especially if modesty is wearing just a small cloth. When will you tell the natives they need some clothes on?

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Actually Keith, if you think they had liberal tendencies.... You better keep reading because the did not look upon makeup, jewelry and many other things in a positive manner and that is pretty consistent across the board.

Also culture never negates the Word and modesty. Especially if modesty is wearing just a small cloth. When will you tell the natives they need some clothes on?

I didn't say anything about liberal tendencies, my arguement has never been from that standpoint, others may call me that, but my focus on always been on the dreaded word relevancy or in Biblical words, become all things to all men so that I might reach them or from a Christological perspective, to be incarnational. I do not believe that embraces sin, but I do think we should be in the world and yet not of it. Do I have all the answers to walk that tightrope that often is fraught with Risk, no but I think for the sake of souls it to be worth it.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Actually Keith, if you think they had liberal tendencies.... You better keep reading because the did not look upon makeup, jewelry and many other things in a positive manner and that is pretty consistent across the board.

Also culture never negates the Word and modesty. Especially if modesty is wearing just a small cloth. When will you tell the natives they need some clothes on?

Curious reading what?

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

what about the cultures where they grow up running around naked? are we to go there and change them and make them dress like us? which is what a lot of missionaries used to do. You suddenly had to change your life style to be saved. You had to dress like the missionaries to be saved. These people were living like their culture. So if your culture were to run around naked would that be wrong of them once they became 'saved'?

I think the approach of Hudson Taylor to be appropriate, by the way, modesty is not the same of being against culture. But believing that a 1950's modesty is applicable in our culture today is missing it in my opinion.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Just proves they lived according to culture they lived in. nothing surpising about that. Doesn't mean I can wear short shorts and a tank top

You can wear or not wear what you want. When you force your conviction on others and manipulate them by tying their salvation to your own convictions, then you are wrong.

Modesty does not require a ban on all shorts. But if that's where you draw the line, good to go.

[On The Wheel]

Originally Posted by Pastor Keith

Have you ever been curious how the First Church regarded standards, holiness and living in a pagan culture?

Well this is a testimony by a Disciple of Polycarp named Mathetes, who most likely wrote this between 100-140AD.

I think to be an eye opener and will likely change your perspective on how the early church related to and lived in a pagan world. I highlighted some parts that I thought would be of interest to our diverse forum.

It was titled "The Manner of Christians"

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking [281] method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. [282] They have a common table, but not a common bed. [283] They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. [284] They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. [285] They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. [286] They are poor, yet make many rich; [287] they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; [288] they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.

People HATE it when their dogmatic traditions are assaulted by actual facts. Those that believe the facts are compromisers and those that cling to fiction are standing for "the truth".

It's the world turned upside down.

[Sister Alvear]

I wonder how many of us would or could really BLEND IN with the early church...

Justin Martyr sketched Christian love this way: “We who used to value the acquisition of wealth and possessions more than anything else now bring what we have into a common fund and share it with anyone who needs it. We used to hate and destroy one another and refused to associate with people of another race or country. Now, because of Christ, we live together with such people and pray for our enemies.” (The Early Church)

[Sister Alvear]

Clement, describing the person who has come to know God, wrote, “He impoverishes himself out of love, so that he is certain he may never overlook a brother in need, especially if he knows he can bear poverty better than his brother. He likewise considers the pain of another as his own pain. And if he suffers any hardship because of having given out of his own poverty, he does not complain.” (The Early Church)

[Sister Alvear]

To many suffering saints in millionaire churches....