I thought They were one??? - Page 4

Esther · #31 11-12-2008, 01:22 PM

Praxeas the only way I know to describe one is: I am one person. I am a daughter, wife, and sister.

God is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and is one.

I'm not sure how you are coming up with a different spirit for the Father and the Holy Ghost, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Esther · #32 11-12-2008, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Well of course you do, Mike.

(Eph 4:6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

But this absurd Trinity doctrine makes some folk think they have the Holy Spirit -- but not the Spirit of the Father at the same time ...even though the scriptures tell us plainly that "there is one spirit" (Eph 4:4).

The Spirit of the Father is not a different Spirit from "the Holy Spirit".

(Matt 10:19-20) 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

(Mark 13:11) 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

TRF you make some good points here. Can you explain the scripture in question? How can one be blasphemed and the other not???

berkeley · #33 11-12-2008, 01:26 PM

I'll be two-ness before I go back to three-ness.

TRFrance · #34 11-12-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther

TRF you make some good points here. Can you explain the scripture in question? How can one be blasphemed and the other not???

We'll I cant claim to have THE explanation, but I'll explain how I've always understood it, in a way that makes sense to my mind. So here goes...

Keep in mind the context of Matt 12:32 . Jesus had just been accused casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub (Satan). But I'll get back to that in a minute...

God we know is one, but his 3 primary operations by which he's known are as Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration and in his operation in the church.

These are three primary offices/roles/manifestations we see from the same one God. When people generically say "God" we're normally referring to Him in His primary role as father, creator and/or overseer of creation. So if one says something harsh against "God" [such as: "God is so evil to cause that earthquake"] we might say he's blaspheming , but I dont think we could say he's blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, even though the Holy Spirit is the divine nature of God himself. In this case the person isnt speaking regarding that particular manifestation/operatin of God . (Hope that makes sense so far...)

Similarly if someone speaks against Jesus or his redemptive work [such as: "his death on the cross mean't nothing"] they are speaking blasphemously but that wouldn't be blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (for the same reason as above).

But if someone says something like: "I visited that Pentecostal church. That speaking-in-tongues stuff ain't real. That's the devil", you might then say that that person has blasphemed, or is in danger of blaspheming, against the Holy Spirit.... because he's spoken pointedly against a specific manifestation/working of God.. that is, his manifestation/operation as "the Holy Spirit".

I think the scripture context gives support to this understanding. Again, if you go back to the Matthew 12 setting, where Jesus brought up the issue: Clearly, we know he was operating under the Spirit's anointing:

"God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." (Acts 10:38)

...but the Pharisees accused him of operating by the power of the devil/Beelzebub. Clearly Jesus felt they had blasphemed against the Holy Ghost, or maybe were in danger of doing so.

...which of course led to Jesus's response...

24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
26And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
28But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
29Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Thus, not all blasphemy against God is specifically blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, even though God is one, and the Holy Spirit is God. I don't think theres any contradiction or inconsistency there at all.

Just my 2 cents. Hope that helps a bit.

mfblume · #35 11-13-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmy

Right. So, if you're gonna blaspheme God, make sure He's in the right "office" at the time. Or else.

(sigh) lol.

I already noted that God is not a man. Speaking against the man was never the same as the Deity. For the same reason Jesus told the rich young ruler to not call any man good, when he called Jesus good.

mfblume · #36 11-13-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son?

No. But the PERSON of the Father is the PERSON of the Son.

mfblume · #37 11-13-2008, 10:36 AM

Anyone having problems with this, read THE ONENESS OF GOD by Bernard. He adequately answers all these issues succinctly.

Praxeas · #38 11-13-2008, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther

Praxeas the only way I know to describe one is: I am one person. I am a daughter, wife, and sister.

God is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and is one.

I'm not sure how you are coming up with a different spirit for the Father and the Holy Ghost, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

You misunderstood what I said. I never said the Spirit of the Father is a different one than the Holy Ghost.

Unfortunately what you say here for theology is very vague. It does not mean anything. It does not explain how God can be Father and Son or how Father and Son are distinct.

As far as one, you seem to be saying then that God is one person that has three roles. See Trinitarians say "Father, Son and Spirit are one".

You asked a specific question based on "how can this be, if they are one"...that shows a lack of understanding of theology. Not trying to be insulting or anything but I find many OPs and Trinitarians really don't know theology. They know sound bites and repeat them but don't really understand the theology that spawned those sound bites

Steve Epley · #39 11-13-2008, 04:23 PM

Yoiu may blaspheme the SON of Man and they did saying He was born of fornication-calling him a winebibber etc.- however if they spoke against the Power and Spirit of the Holy Ghost operating through him like saying He cast out devils by the power of the devil it was unforgiveable. Thus they could speak against His humanity but NOT His divinity.

Esther · #40 11-13-2008, 04:32 PM

[QUOTE=Steve Epley;630462]Yoiu may blaspheme the SON of Man and they did saying He was born of fornication-calling him a winebibber etc.- however if they spoke against the Power and Spirit of the Holy Ghost operating through him like saying He cast out devils by the power of the devil it was unforgiveable. Thus they could speak against His humanity but NOT His divinity.[/QUOTE]

That seems to be the consensus.