Is God Free to Not Chose to Love and Save All...?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Esther

Easy.

He is God.

He made the rules.

We obey the rules or pay the consequences.

He gave you and I and everyone else a free will to choose.

We in essence send our selves to where we go.

We can choose to go to church or we can choose to go to the bar. Where we go is OUR choice, not His.

Sister,
What your post misses is that we were all born and shapen in inquity, estranged from God without hope in the world. The world is fallen and there is none that seeks after God. Chan is correct, that it is only the mercy of God that CAUSES anyone to repent. Fortunely, he is not a respector of persons and will pursue each and everyone of us until we "see" His salvation.

Again, in your last sentence you are mistaken, "we would go no where, except that God gave us the 'desire and will' to do so. Our freewill is very, very limited within the boundaries of where God placed us in the earth.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Chan

I take it to mean exactly what it says. The Greek word translated hated means:

1. to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2. to be hated, detested

There are other places in scripture where it says God hates specific kinds of people. In the same way, certain behaviors are considered "abominations," things that are detestable or disgusting. The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament where it says God hated Esau and hates certain kinds of people has the following meanings:

to hate, be hateful

1. (Qal) to hate
   1. of man
   2. of God
   3. hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
2. (Niphal) to be hated
3. (Piel) hater (participle)
   1. of persons, nations, God, wisdom

You really can't get around the fact that certain specific words were used and that these words have specific meanings.

Your doctrine is convoluted, God hates all this stuff yet he will go ahead and save a few of those that He hates. So he really is a respecter of persons, he favors some over others, so He is partial and unfair. You may say He is God so He can do anything He chooses. Well, he will choose to do that which is consistent with His character.

[RevDWW]

The whole of Romans chapter 9 speaks to the question you raise.

Rom 9:2 - 33 (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

His ways are higher then our ways. God is sovereign and can do what He will.

So it would appear that we must answer the question as to what we are doing with the vessel God formed us in. If you know the truth, it will set you free.
As for me:
I must obey what I know to be true in the Word. I must repent of my sins, I must be baptized in the name/authority/power of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, and I shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost which will guide me into all truth. I must respond to His leading, I must resist the will of the flesh and answer to the will of the Spirit.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by crakjak

....or, is He constrained by the very nature of His being, is God bound to love and save all?

If God loves you and desires the very best for you, how could sending your children, parents or other loved ones to "endless torment" or extermination, be consistent with loving and desiring the best for you?? Will He not instead by His love and power bring all your loved ones to salvation as well?

Is wiping your memory of your loved ones loving? Why instead wouldn't God simply continue pursuing your loved ones until they surrender to His irresistible love.

If you believe God is bound to his word. Then what he has stated from before the foundation of the World. He can't and will not change.

We sometimes what to think, "If we were God, What would we do?"

It does not work that way. We are not God......

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

The whole of Romans chapter 9 speaks to the question you raise.






His ways are higher then our ways. God is sovereign and can do what He will.

So it would appear that we must answer the question as to what we are doing with the vessel God formed us in. If you know the truth, it will set you free.
As for me:
I must obey what I know to be true in the Word. I must repent of my sins, I must be baptized in the name/authority/power of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, and I shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost which will guide me into all truth. I must respond to His leading, I must resist the will of the flesh and answer to the will of the Spirit.

I do not believe Paul was saying that he wished himself to suffer eternal damnation for his brethen. Further, no where in Romans 9 is he speaking of folks being in danger of endless torment, nor does it teach that only a few elect will be saved. Yes, God chose Jacob as a vessel of honor and Esau as a vessel of dishonor, He has mercy on whomever He wills, hardens the hearts of whomever He wills. This verses must be interpreted in their context in Romans. These verses speak of folks physical lives and in no way are projecting their final end. Romans 5.18, Clearly tells us, just as "one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one Man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Romans 11.32 tells why God allows evil, "imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may be merciful to all."

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

If you believe God is bound to his word. Then what he has stated from before the foundation of the World. He can't and will not change.

We sometimes what to think, "If we were God, What would we do?"

It does not work that way. We are not God......

What you say here I do not disagree with, however men are notorious for misinterpreting God's intent.

Just because something has been understood, by the powers that be, a certain way does not necessarily mean it is the correct understanding. Most of the traditional views are views that were imposed by the Roman sword.

There have been many believers in Universal Reconciliation down thru history, but the prevailing view is the view that God will destroy or torment the vast majority of His creation endlessly.

The view that God will ultimately reign victorious over all evil is pervasive throughout scripture. So which interpretation will you embrace?

I choose to read and interpret that God will do what He said Jesus came to do, "seek and to save that which is lost". I choose to believe scripture teaches that God's mercy and His severity is His love at work to finally bring all persons to right relationship with Himself and with each other. I believe this view is much more in line with God's word, than the traditional view.

[Barb]

When ever I read this thread title, I am reminded of the words of the song...

God could have chosen to never love again...

[Neck]

Originally Posted by crakjak

What you say here I do not disagree with, however men are notorious for misinterpreting God's intent.

Just because something has been understood, by the powers that be, a certain way does not necessarily mean it is the correct understanding. Most of the traditional views are views that were imposed by the Roman sword.

There have been many believers in Universal Reconciliation down thru history, but the prevailing view is the view that God will destroy or torment the vast majority of His creation endlessly.

The view that God will ultimately reign victorious over all evil is pervasive throughout scripture. So which interpretation will you embrace?

I choose to read and interpret that God will do what He said Jesus came to do, "seek and to save that which is lost". I choose to believe scripture teaches that God's mercy and His severity is His love at work to finally bring all persons to right relationship with Himself and with each other. I believe this view is much more in line with God's word, than the traditional view.

I agree. My comments were around the idea that God would save
all no matter the sinful condition they may stay in....

Originally Posted by crakjak

Have you decided what you think about this?

Not really, you???

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by CupCake

Not really, you???

I have been posting what I think about this subject, just wondering if you had any input?