Paganism in Christianity

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

there is nothing wrong with appropriating so-called pagan rituals and such into worship to the true God. i think the same principle applies here as does eating meat offered to idols did in corinth. just as long as we don't incorporate pagan ideas and ungodly concepts into our theology (something we've done too much of frankly). in fact, it's my opinion that if you don't attempt to contextualize the gospel that you are not being obedient to matt 28:18.

We're dealing with a weaker brother who would be very upset if we ate meat sacrificed to idols. We have to approach him with love and never violate his conscience if in his presence. But, we're also not to allow him to use his weakness to bully or lord his convictions over us.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

But the bigger picture is that you make a pagan practice sacred the second you make it a central part of your remembrance of or celebration of Jesus.

Bro...I never said any of these traditions are "must haves". Nor are they central to remembering or celebrating Jesus. In fact we remember and celebrate Jesus every day of the year. I view holidays largely as fun and festivities. I don't think a Christmas tree is an absolute necessity, nor do I see Easter Eggs or Easter Baskets as a necessity. Fun and festive? Yes. Necessary? No. Central? No.

See, here's where you're thinking is all wrong...you assume because my family has fun with these things, we make them central. Bro....we've had lean holidays where we didn't even put up a tree and had few gifts...and we were still blessed with the reality of Jesus. So please....get off your high horse and relax. I'm not pagan. I don't worship a tree. I don't worship a Bunny.

And you might find this interesting, but the original "St. Nicholas", Bishop of Myra, may have been a Oneness believer. If you look at the records he was recorded as having attended Nicea. The Bishop of Myra got into a physical confrontation with Arius when Arius denied that Jesus was God. He attended the rest of the meetings...but on the final list of attendees who affirmed the Trinity...his name is missing. So either the records are incomplete....or Nicholas believed that Jesus was God...but not in the sense the Trinitarians envisioned it. Since he confronted Arius, he wasn't an Arian. That leaves one school of theology popular at the time....Modalism.

Though a lot of legend surrounds the man, the study of Nicholas is an interesting study really.

Oh...and did you know that the idea that Christ's birth was on the 25th of December is rooted in an ancient Jewish tradition? I'll tell you more if you're interested.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

So God told his people to learn not the ways of the heathen and in the NT in the context of idolatry from those outside of the church, we are told to come out from among them and be ye separate.

However, the false church turns to "Christianity" but does not want to give up its pagan ways, so "covers it up" with some "Christian" pixy dust.

And later on when the truth comes out, some in Christianity are so entangled in "Christian" tradition, that they want to come up with rationalizations and justifications so that they don't have to give them up.

Mithra Worship

1. Mithra - Bee represented Logos or Mithra in paganism, originally worshipped by lighting candles made of bee's wax. (Wynne-Tyson pp. 5-7, Hislop pp. 194-195)
2. In Mithra worship initiates went through what is called the 12 tortures of Mithra. (Wynne-Tyson pp 25,42,58, 114 ,186
3. Mithra's birthday was celebrated on December 25
4. Mithra depicted In a chariot riding across the sky (imitation of the sun) with twelve horses.
5. Mithra - Main day of worship Sunday ( Wynne-Tyson p 102)
6. Mithra communion meal was eaten during worship
7. Mithra - Priests referred to as Father and head priest as Father of Fathers (Wynne-Tyson p 41)
8. Called Mithra Logos & second person of the Zorastrian trinity (Paine pp 80-82)
9. Mithra - Worshipped Cybele as the Mother of Mithra & Queen of Heaven (Wynne-Tyson pp 192-198)
10. Mithra worshipped in the form of a fir tree (Wynne-Tyson pp. 54-55)
11. Mithra Priests wore a cap called Mitre which is a derivation of Mithra (Wynne-Tyson p. 66)
12. Mithra - The cross or sword was very central in Mithra worship (Wynne-Tyson p. 66)
13. Mithra - Round wafer used in communion represented the sun (Hislop pp. 161-163, Wynne-Tyson p 24f

Compare the above to...

Catholicism

1. Catholicism - ''The waxen candles of the altars of the Romish Church therefore keep their maker, Dubar, the Bee or the Word, constantly before the attention of the faithful." Wynne-Tyson p7)
2. In Catholicism we see In most churches the 12 stations or tortures of the cross (l3th and 14th stations post-mortem).
3. Catholic tradition says Christ was born on December 25.
4. Saint Nicholas riding across the sky with sleigh & 12 reindeer
5. Catholic Main day of worship Sunday
6. Catholic Great significance attached to communion.
7. Catholic Priests referred to as Father and Pope as Father of Fathers
8. Catholics Call Jesus Logos & second person of the Catholic Trinity
9. Catholics Worship Mary as the Mother of God and the Queen of Heaven
10. Catholic Christmas tree of Christianity
11. Catholic Pope and Bishops wear cap called Mitre named after Mithra (Hislop pp 217,218)
12. Catholic Christ depicted hanging from the cross (or sword) of Mithra with a crown of thorns or halo over His head. (Halo represents Sun-god) (Wynne-Tyson p 66)
13. Catholic Round wafer used in communion In Catholic Church I H S on the wafer to a pagan would mean lsis, Horus, Seb (or the Mother, the Child & the Father of the Gods)--the Egyptian trinity. Hislop p. 164)

God and his people had dominion in the OT as well, but that didn't stop God from telling his people to "learn not the ways of the heathen".

Bro....I'm not Catholic. I'd prefer the Pope on a rope.

[Aquila]

We are to separate ourselves from the "sinful" ways of this world. Putting up a seasonal decoration isn't a sin.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro....I'm not Catholic. I'd prefer the Pope on a rope.

Good Friend, Perhaps OldPath would not have bothered to write you such a lenghty and indepth comparsion of RC and Mitherism if you did not sound so much like a romanist?

Can you consider why you would have to respond to someone with, "I'm not Catholic." It is because you are advocating the same missionary practices of mixing heathenism/paganisim that Rome has done for centuries with the true worship of Jesus Christ. You sound like a Catholic!

Further, you write that you would like to see the "pope on a rope." What this has to say about you I am not sure. But I find the remark disgusting and distastful. Even if you meant it in jest, it is a bad joke. But if you are serious then you need spiritual help and counseling, perhaps medication. Sorry....

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We are to separate ourselves from the "sinful" ways of this world. Putting up a seasonal decoration isn't a sin.

Jeremiah would disagree with you.

[Sam]

I posted that old article but I do not agree with some of the conclusions in it.

Our children were raised in a Oneness Pentecostal Church. They heard Bible stories at home and prayed with their parents at bed time.

On Halloween they put on costumes and went out in the neighborhood for trick or treat. They went out accompanied by one parent while the other parent stayed home and gave out candy. We had not problem if one was dressed like a witch or one was dressed like a ghost. Witches and demons have no authority over us. We're protected by the blood of Jesus and by His name. We have authority over the works of darkness. We also carved pumpkins but never became demonized.

At Christmas time they heard about Santa Claus when they were small and later realized that there really is a Santa Clause but he is not a literal little fat man in a red suit. Instead he is "the spirit of Christmas" a fun figure we talk about and see in the attitude of love and benevolence in people at that time of the year. When they realized Santa wasn't a real person they didn't doubt whether Jesus was real or not. They joined in talking about Santa with younger relatives and perpetuated a fun fantasy.

At Easter we stayed home. It was a time to spend with family. We never had money to buy new clothes and join in the fashion parade at the local Apostolic Church. People showed up who never darkened the door of the church for the rest of the year. We didn't know them and they didn't know us. A day or so before Easter we dyed eggs together. At least one egg would come out of the dye with the message "He is risen" on it. Easter morning we shared in a family Easter basket filled with way too much candy to be healthy. We hunted for eggs in the house because it was usually too wet or too cold to do it outside. Some years we were even able to all go out to eat which was a rare treat at that time with 5 children and only one parent working and one staying home with the children.

To us, Christmas, Easter, 4th of July, Halloween, Thanksgiving, etc. were not pagan but part of our American and family culture. Sure lots of stuff that was part of the holiday celebration came from paganism but you can hardly separate that out of our culture. The days of our week are named after the sun god, the moon god, Wodon, Saturn, etc. Some of our months are named after gods and pagan rulers. But we still use calendars with Sunday through Saturday and with January through December.

I think some of us just need to lighten up and not be looking for a devil under every rock and behind each tree. This is the day that the Lord hath made. And every day is the day that the Lord hath made. Let us rejoice and be glad in each day.

[TK Burk]

First you said...

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro...I never said any of these traditions are "must haves". Nor are they central to remembering or celebrating Jesus.

And a few posts later you said...

Originally Posted by Aquila

We are to separate ourselves from the "sinful" ways of this world. Putting up a seasonal decoration isn't a sin.

What "season" are you referring to, Aquila?

You first claimed Christmas was all about remembering Jesus' birthday. You then listed all the "traditional" things that you enjoy doing for Christmas, like the tree, egg nog, and such. Then when I said it is paganism when you include such things into celebrating Jesus, you claimed you did not make them central. Hmmm... Now, you're calling them "seasonal decorations"?? And THAT is not making them central to your 'seasonal' celebration of Jesus' birth?? Oh, okay....

[Sam]

Originally Posted by U376977

Jeremiah would disagree with you.

Ah, the old "Jeremiah tree" of Jeremiah chapter 10.

I used to belong to an organization called The Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Faith. Our Presiding Bishop was against lots of stuff. Some of the preachers used Jeremiah chapter 10 to preach against Christmas trees.

One family in which the Dad and at least one son were preachers lived in SE Kentucky. Folks down there did not go to a lot and buy a tree. They went out into the woods and cut one. One year some of the family members decided they wanted a Christmas tree that year and went out and cut one and brought it home. Their Dad was agin' it. He told them they were heatherns (that's how some say it in Kentucky). One son who was a preacher clearly showed his father how Jeremiah chapter 10 did not apply to them. He pointed out verse 3 where it says, "...one cutteth a tree out of the forest..." He said, "See, Daddy, it says here that ONE cutteth a tree out of the forest. We didn't have just one person go get that tree. There were several of us."

[U376977]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

First you said...



And a few posts later you said...



What "season" are you referring to, Aquila?

You first claimed it was all about remembering Jesus' birthday. You then listed all the "traditional" things that you enjoy doing for Christmas, like the tree, egg nog, and such. Then when I said it is paganism when you include such things into celebrating Jesus, you claimed you did not make them central. Hmmm... Now, you're calling them "seasonal decorations"?? And THAT is not making them central to your 'seasonal' celebration of Jesus' birth?? Oh, okay....

Good Brother,

Your post illustrates that Aquila is inconsistant, I have found the same thing in his posts with me. I think this is the case of someone deliberatly sticking their head in the sand and continuing to argue with no regard, not speaking from core values but lenghty ramblings that in the end say nothing and make no sense.