Incarnation OR Indwelling?

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Was Jesus the Word made flesh? John 1:14 How would you define "Word"? John 1:1 states the Word was God not a thought, not an image, not an action.

Is it possible that Jesus not only was God existing as a man but was also anointed by God?

If you don't believe Jesus was God, you have to explain what he meant when He said in Rev 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Jesus said other things that indicated that He was/is God. The writers of the NT believed that Jesus was/is God.


The Word did bridge the gap when the Word became flesh. But the Word was God and the Word became man. These are not easy to reconcile nor explain whether you are Oneness or a Trinitarian. And a Unitarian has to explain away all the verses that teach the Messiah is God in the flesh. The Son shall be called The Mighty God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Then you may be surprised that many agree with your sentiments. Even though I believe Jesus is God Himself revealed in flesh, I do not believe Jesus did or said anything from His divine nature. He functioned as a man anointed by God. Jesus' very words attest to this fact.

John 7:16-17 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Some people refer to the setting aside or nonuse of divine powers as a kenosis or an emptying. I see it somewhat differently.

God was Christ and God was in Christ. You have to accept both of these statements because it is what the Bible declares. How you reconcile these statements is up to you.

all I can say is I don't have a problem with any scripture you have posted here... I just see it differently... because I know see how he was the Word....

I also now understand how we are our words... the fleshly body was not God. His actions revealed was God.... just as people now look at us and we following the example that he lead... we now reflect Christ.... because he is reigning in power... it is his example... his actions that has paved the way that is all powerful by his sacrifice... doing things in the name of Jesus is simply doing as Jesus did... doing as the one we follow.

gotta go

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esther

Didn't want to lose this discussion from another thread.

Posted by Mapleleaf

The Son was not a body in which God dwelt; the Son was God manifested in flesh, Emmanuel, God with us.


It is the difference between incarnation and indwelling.

In Christ, God did not indwell a man, God became a man.

The birth of Christ was a unique joining of absolute Deity with perfect humanity, and of this we say, great is the mystery of godliness."

To be manifested in flesh does not mean one became flesh, period, with no more explanation than that. "Manifest" is simply making oneself known through something. God cannot become a man or else He ceases to be God. When we read the word was made flesh, the qualifier for that is the statement that says HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED.

John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


G4637
σκηνόω
skēnoō
skay-no'-o
From G4636; to tent or encamp, that is, (figuratively) to occupy (as a mansion) or (specifically) to reside (as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol fo protection and communion): - dwell.


John 2:19-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

God was not the tabernacle, but manifested in it by INDWELLING IT. So the WAY IN WHICH God was made flesh was by INDWELLING flesh. Even Jesus called His body the temple. Incarnation is not different than indwelling. Incarnate means ENFLESHED. That does not mean God became flesh.

INDWELLING does not mean the body was the Son. THE HUMAN BEING was the Son. And the Deity was also the Son. But deity and humanity are not the same thing. One can never become the other.

The HUMANITY was tempted -- not God. The HUMANITY was born -- not God. Mary IS NOT the mother of God. GOD did not die.
My view anyway.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

To be manifested in flesh does not mean one became flesh, period, with no more explanation than that. "Manifest" is simply making oneself known through something. God cannot become a man or else He ceases to be God. When we read the word was made flesh, the qualifier for that is the statement that says HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED.

John 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


G4637
σκηνόω
skēnoō
skay-no'-o
From G4636; to tent or encamp, that is, (figuratively) to occupy (as a mansion) or (specifically) to reside (as God did in the Tabernacle of old, a symbol fo protection and communion): - dwell.


John 2:19-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (20) Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? (21) But he spake of the temple of his body.

God was not the tabernacle, but manifested in it by INDWELLING IT. So the WAY IN WHICH God was made flesh was by INDWELLING flesh. Even Jesus called His body the temple. Incarnation is not different than indwelling. Incarnate means ENFLESHED. That does not mean God became flesh.

INDWELLING does not mean the body was the Son. THE HUMAN BEING was the Son. And the Deity was also the Son. But deity and humanity are not the same thing. One can never become the other.

The HUMANITY was tempted -- not God. The HUMANITY was born -- not God. Mary IS NOT the mother of God. GOD did not die.
My view anyway.

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 NAS

Just wanted to put that version out there because it says, the Word became flesh.

Bro Blume, I'm a little confused about what you are saying. Are you saying something similar to what we read about ourselves in 2 Cor 5:1-11? In which Paul states that we live within the tents of our physical bodies. That is kind of like an indwelling.

But aren't you in effect saying that Jesus Christ is not God when you say that God did not die?

[DaveC519]

Some people refer to the setting aside or nonuse of divine powers as a kenosis or an emptying. I see it somewhat differently.

Hi Mizpeh,

In what way(s) do you see this differently? Thanks

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by Esther

Didn't want to lose this discussion from another thread.

Posted by Mapleleaf

The Son was not a body in which God dwelt; the Son was God manifested in flesh, Emmanuel, God with us.


It is the difference between incarnation and indwelling.

In Christ, God did not indwell a man, God became a man.

The birth of Christ was a unique joining of absolute Deity with perfect humanity, and of this we say, great is the mystery of godliness."

Hello Esther,

I believe there are some important verses which can be brought to bear on our understanding of this: did God indwell a man, or become a man? I believe it is both.

1)- "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." (Heb 2:16-17)

The Son was literally made like unto his brethren (the seed of Abraham)- He was a genuine human being. He was truly human in every way we are- save without sin (4:15).


2)- "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

As Mizpeh already pointed out, the Word (Logos) was God (vs. 1)

"Made" is translated from the Greek ginomai, literally meaning "to become". "Flesh" is translated from sarx, and refers to more than just the fleshly shell, but rather, human nature:

"NT:4561
(b) "the human body," 2 Cor 10:3 a; Gal 2:20; Phil 1:22; (c) by synecdoche, of "mankind," in the totality of all that is essential to manhood, i. e., spirit, soul, and body, Matt 24:22; John 1:13; Rom 3:20; (d) by synecdoche, of "the holy humanity" of the Lord Jesus, in the totality of all that is essential to manhood, i. e., spirit, soul, and body John 1:14; 1 Tim 3:16; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7, in Heb 5:7, "the days of His flesh," i. e., His past life on earth in distinction from His present life in resurrection; (e) by synecdoche, for "the complete person," John 6:51-57; 2 Cor 7:5; James 5:3;
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)


So, we see from the two passages above that Jesus was not just God indwelling a separate/distinct human person, but was the divine person of God who began a distinct human existence. He did not join to Himself an angelic nature (Heb 2:16), but a human nature (with all that entails), and began to exist in and through that human nature. He (God) continued to exist as omnipresent Spirit as He always had, while also existing as a genuine human being.


3)- "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him." (Acts 10:38)

We see from this passage that Jesus was not only God incarnate, but that His human nature was also "anointed... with the Holy Ghost and with power". This anointing was poured out upon Him "without measure" (Jn 3:34). It is in this way we can say the Son was "indwelt" by God, although He was at the same time "God incarnate".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 NAS

Just wanted to put that version out there because it says, the Word became flesh.

Bro Blume, I'm a little confused about what you are saying. Are you saying something similar to what we read about ourselves in 2 Cor 5:1-11? In which Paul states that we live within the tents of our physical bodies. That is kind of like an indwelling.

Let me say it this way: John did not stop with simply saying the word was made flesh. Hew knew he had to say more than just that the Word was made flesh. He had to explain what he meant. He ADDED the thought with something that QUALIFIED what he meant by saying "HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED. The Word no more became flesh in the way some think than God became the TEMPLE in the Old Testament. Humanity was the temple. God did not BECOME humanity. He indwelt it.

But aren't you in effect saying that Jesus Christ is not God when you say that God did not die?

No. Jesus is GOD as per His person. AS A MAN, He died alone. Not as God. He was both, but the human was not God and God was not human. I believe the bible teaches TWO NATURES. HUMAN NATURE alone died. Not divine nature.

God did not become a man any more than a man can become God. I personally think it is idolatry to say God BECAME A MAN - like in transmutation. Nothing personal against anyone, btw.

[DaveC519]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let me say it this way: John did not stop with simply saying the word was made flesh. He QUALIFIED what he meant by saying HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED. The Word no more became flesh in the way some think than God became the TEMPLE in the Old Testament. Humanity was the temple. God did not BECOME humanity. He indwelt it.

Hello mfblume,

You are correct in saying "dwelt" means "tabernacled". But rather than tabernacled qualifying made, I believe made qualifies tabernacled. As I pointed out in the previous post, flesh (sarx) means more than simply the outer fleshly shell, but the whole human nature. So, the way the Word "tabernacled" among us was by assuming a complete human nature and existing in/through that human nature.

No. Jesus is GOD as per His person. AS A MAN, He died alone. Not as God. He was both, but the human was not God and God was not human. I believe the bible teaches TWO NATURES. HUMAN NATURE alone died. Not divine nature.

God did not become a man any more than a man can become God. I personally think it is idolatry to say God BECAME A MAN - like in transmutation. Nothing personal against anyone, btw.

We know that the attributes and properties of deity are immutable, which means they cannot change (or die). Human nature CAN change, including being subject to death. However, since it was the divine person of God who was existing as a genuine human being (as the Son), then it was the person of God who died- not as to His divine nature, but as to His human nature. As Magee once said, "God did not die, but He who died was God".

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Hi Mizpeh,

In what way(s) do you see this differently? Thanks

First off, the word, kenosis, and the idea of emptying of divine attributes comes from Phil 2. I disagree with that interpretation of the passage which some would state means that when God came in the similitude of man, He emptied Himself of divinity. I don't disagree so much with the idea of a type of emptying because it can be found in the book of Hebrews.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The pertinent part of this passage which refers back to verse 9...but we see Jesus... is the part that states, "in all things it behooved him [Jesus] to be made like unto his brethren". The Bible teaches that Jesus is God existing as a man. The Word(God) became man (flesh) as stated in John 1:14 and Jesus was made in all things like unto his brethren....IOW, Jesus was made human in every way that we are human. The incarnation is more than an indwelling which is how we view the way God indwells everyone who has been baptized with His Spirit. God actually became human and I think the verses in Hebrew 2:17 and John 1:14 confirm that statement.

Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, NAV

2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

I suppose these two verses can be understood two ways. Either as Christ being an agent of God in the process of reconciliation or as Christ being God and reconciling the world unto himself through His incarnation. These are subtle points but they are important in that which ever way you view Jesus, you will either understand His identity to be God or not God.

Back to your question. All I can say is in whatever way we were made human, God did likewise in being made flesh. He went through a similar process except His Spirit preexisted whereas our spirits are created by God at conception.

Does that mean God voluntarily constrained and restricted Himself at the conception of Christ? And how does this harmonize with "all the fullness of deity" that was resident bodily (within the incarnation)? Is "all the fullness of Deity" compatible with saying constrained and restricted? I guess that would depend upon what is meant by "all the fullness of Deity". (I think that phrase means "all that makes God, God" in a quantitative sense.)

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No. Jesus is GOD as per His person. AS A MAN, He died alone. Not as God. He was both, but the human was not God and God was not human. I believe the bible teaches TWO NATURES. HUMAN NATURE alone died. Not divine nature.

You have conflicting statements in this paragraph.

1) Jesus is God as per His person

2) Human nature alone died.

So what you are saying, imo, is that human nature consists of a human spirit/soul and a human body. And when Jesus died, the human died since Jesus is God and God did not die and God was not human. Therefore Jesus, the Son of God, could not possibly be God.

Or you may be saying that when Jesus died, the person of Jesus who is God, left the human nature alone to die. Therefore you have two centers of consciousness within Christ, one who is God and the other who is human. And it was the human who said, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

but the writer of Hebrews lets us know that Christ is God: Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:

God did not become a man any more than a man can become God. I personally think it is idolatry to say God BECAME A MAN - like in transmutation. Nothing personal against anyone, btw.

The NAV translates John 1:14 as the "Word became flesh". We know from John 1:1 that the Word is God. So God became flesh. We could also say God became man since that is what is meant by flesh. I understand that God is immutable and cannot change who and what He is. Yet, not me, but the word of God states that God became a man.

If you want to say that God tabernacled among us to try to turn the incarnation more into an indwelling, then wouldn't that be equivalent to saying that we as humans likewise tabernacle in this world? 2 Cor 5:1-11? How is our "tabernacling" any different from Christ's "tabernacling"? We wouldn't be considered completely human without our "tabernacles", our physical bodies.

Bro Blume said:

Let me say it this way: John did not stop with simply saying the word was made flesh. Hew knew he had to say more than just that the Word was made flesh. He had to explain what he meant. He ADDED the thought with something that QUALIFIED what he meant by saying "HE DWELT among us. DWELT means TABERNACLED. The Word no more became flesh in the way some think than God became the TEMPLE in the Old Testament. Humanity was the temple. God did not BECOME humanity. He indwelt it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

As Magee once said, "God did not die, but He who died was God".

Amen, this makes sense only when we understand that the SINGLE PERSON OF GOD was both God and Son of God. The same person of the man and God was Who it was Who died. So GOD did not die. But the PERSON of the ONE WHO DIED was THE PERSON of God. Magee had the revelation!