I submit that the overarching objective is to instill a confidence that EQUITY exists within a system of laws. Justice demands "retribution" for the ills that your actions 'involuntarily' imposed on a non-combative society.
That is why I am saddened that WORK camps have been considered 'cruel and unusual' punishment. The reality of any punitive loss of liberty should not just be a loss of access or discretionary time, but should inherently have a 'retribution' component.
If someone perpetrates an act that contradicts the known laws of a society, the punishment should include activities consistent with an equitable repayment of society's loss plus the cost to apprehend, prosecute and incarcerate(sp?). It would not likely be one-for-one dollar costing, but it would incentivize certain aspects of the process to seek the fastest agreeable resolution.
I agree!
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Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
Retribution:3: something given or exacted in recompense; especially:punishment
What I find interesting however ... is that when some pay their debt that we as a society have decided is just... it is still not enough in the minds of many.
Retribution:3: something given or exacted in recompense; especially:punishment
What I find interesting however ... is that when some pay their debt that we as a society have decided is just... it is still not enough in minds of many.
And so I wonder if they want justice?
This is true. You made the statement on another thread recently, which got me thinking and reading about why we punish. We talk about repeat offenders and maybe they are repeat offenders because we haven't given them what they deserve, but on the other hand once they have endured the punishment that was proscribed why should we hold that over their heads from that point on.
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"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
Got me to thinking about why I punished my children when they were young. I have not reached my own conclusions yet Baron, but thanks for this thread.
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
First, WHY do we punish NOW and secondly why SHOULD we punish.
Sadly I think our current system is simply the least costly way to meet the minimum expectation of society at large.
I dont think there is any serious thought to any of this. Mostly politicians play to the crowd and seek the most votes possible. So they pass laws to lock up criminals for longer and longer, until such time as the number of inmates and the cost to keep them in jail crosses a certain line. when that line is crossed, taxes would have to be raised, so politicians reduce terms or let out "non-violent offenders" out early (not considering the fact they became voilent in prison).
THAT is really what punishment in America is all about now. Nothing more, nothing less.
It used to be about punishment. You went to jail to suffer personally for what ever crime you committed. then we decided that rehabilitiation was the thing and so there was a battle between the two.
Well, the punishment side could not be defeated. The Rehab side could not gain control but neither side was willing to give. so the Rehabers decided to mitigate the punishment and now we have holding pins for humanity. We put them out of our thoughts but they are mingling together learning more crime and violence from each other, being indoctrinated with hate and latching on to what ever group will give them what every human needs, validation.
In the end we get NOTHING of value except that while the offender (read criminal) is locked up, we are safe FOR A TIME.
The criminal justice system should be called the criminal injustice system because it is unjust to SOCIETY.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I agree w/ some of the points you've made Ferd ... Your conservatism on this issues shines through ...
How would you reconcile some of what you've said with figures like these:
A U.S. Justice Department report released on November 30 (2006) showed that a record 7 million people -- or one in every 32 American adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole at the end of last year. Of the total, 2.2 million were in prison or jail.
According to the International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College in London, more people are behind bars in the United States than in any other country. China ranks second with 1.5 million prisoners, followed by Russia with 870,000.
The U.S. incarceration rate of 737 per 100,000 people in the highest, followed by 611 in Russia and 547 for St. Kitts and Nevis. In contrast, the incarceration rates in many Western industrial nations range around 100 per 100,000 people.
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Are all ex-convicts repeat offenders? Why do so many repeat in your opinion? ... you said that prisons are just holding pins? How do we make sure they don't repeat while still being true to our Constitutional principles?
How do you think we should run our prisons that are filled to capacity?
My wife lived and worked in Singapore from 86-90 before coming to Canada & they have a low crime rate.
Even spitting on the sidewalk is against the law.
Women routinely walk home alone at 2:00 am because it is safe.
They have punishment & mete it out.
A little too much of a police state though if you ask me.
They hang drug traffickers, & remember Michael Fay?
He got canned for spray painting some cars.
6 strokes was the punishment & Bill Clinton intervened & he got it reduced to 3!
They don't fool around.
I think though they are a little too much Big Brother.
There are the two extremes, harsh in Singapore & soft in North America.
Surely there is a balance somewhere in the middle?
My wife lived and worked in Singapore from 86-90 before coming to Canada & they have a low crime rate.
Even spitting on the sidewalk is against the law.
Women routinely walk home alone at 2:00 am because it is safe.
They have punishment & mete it out.
A little too much of a police state though if you ask me.
They hang drug traffickers, & remember Michael Fay?
He got canned for spray painting some cars.
6 strokes was the punishment & Bill Clinton intervened & he got it reduced to 3!
They don't fool around.
I think though they are a little too much Big Brother.
There are the two extremes, harsh in Singapore & soft in North America.
Surely there is a balance somewhere in the middle?
I agree w/ some of the points you've made Ferd ... Your conservatism on this issues shines through ...
How would you reconcile some of what you've said with figures like these:
A U.S. Justice Department report released on November 30 (2006) showed that a record 7 million people -- or one in every 32 American adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole at the end of last year. Of the total, 2.2 million were in prison or jail.
According to the International Centre for Prison Studies at King's College in London, more people are behind bars in the United States than in any other country. China ranks second with 1.5 million prisoners, followed by Russia with 870,000.
The U.S. incarceration rate of 737 per 100,000 people in the highest, followed by 611 in Russia and 547 for St. Kitts and Nevis. In contrast, the incarceration rates in many Western industrial nations range around 100 per 100,000 people.
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Are all ex-convicts repeat offenders? Why do so many repeat in your opinion? ... you said that prisons are just holding pins? How do we make sure they don't repeat while still being true to our Constitutional principles?
How do you think we should run our prisons that are filled to capacity?
my conservitism shines thru? or are you reading something into what I said that I didnt say because you know who conseritive I am?
as for reconcilliation of your numbers.... I think they speak volumes. this is a direct result of the failure of ALL of our politicians and our society. I have to work for a bit, But I think you will be very supprised when I give you my take on what we ought to do to fix the problem...
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
We are trying to discuss why we punish, not how fair or unfair the system is. Of course on AFF we hardly ever stay on topic because we have a great diverse forum. But I have come to realize a lot of times I punished my kids out of fear, that if I didn't they would not have any boundaries. And I have also come to the conclusion that you cannot do that with most adults, so why do we punish criminals?
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
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