Be Ye Perfect

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

In another thread Man Of Word said:

The Head of the church does NOT require His people to be perfect. They are to be perfected. They will NEVER be perfect down here. We are all in the process of being perfected and will NEVER reach the place that our flaws are gone until we are freed from these bodies.

Are you stating that you believe in the doctrine of sinless perfection?.

Hello Michael.

I really don’t think that the context of Matthew 5:48 is either physical healing or sinless perfection. For by reading the context on from verse 43 which talks about our enemies and our not retaliating against their evil acts and conduct towards us (verse 44), I’d see the context for this passage as that of our own conduct towards our enemies being prefect just as God’s conduct to them is also perfect, for he blesses both the good and the wicked equally with regard to the physical blessings and disasters of this world (verse 45) irespective of this conduct. There is therefore nothing about sinless perfection in the immediate context to Matthew 5:48 and so introducing it at verse 48 would seem to me to be somewhat forced upon the text itself in the light of the preceding context! Perfection is spoken of only in the light of our own loving conduct in the face of our enemies wicked actions towards us.

That physical perfection isn’t the context for this passage is obvious to me from passages such as Romans 8:23 where even in a post-resurrection context we still await the redemption of our physical bodies! This means that whilst our souls are saved at the moment of repentance i.e. of true saving faith. Nonetheless, our physical bodies aren’t yet redeemed, but will be so after either Christ’s return or possibly after the 1,000 year millennial reign (if you’re a firm futurist). This is an excellent argument against the modern healing movement as it explains why people; even mature and godly Christians still get sick today: It’s because their bodies haven’t as yet been redeemed. For if our bodies had been also healed together with our souls at the moment of our conversion then we would not be able to ever die, or get sick, but would live forever in perfect and flawless bodies. The consequence of this is that Christian under torture would not be freed from such severe pain by death, but could be tortured endlessly, for being saved in both soul and body the Christian would consequently not be able to die and so could be tortured continuously. This is probably why God has in his mercy not as yet healed our physical bodies and why as Christians we suffer frequent illnesses, get sick and die.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

Hello Michael.

I really don’t think that the context of Matthew 5:48 is either physical healing or sinless perfection. For by reading the context on from verse 43 which talks about our enemies and our not retaliating against their evil acts and conduct towards us (verse 44), I’d see the context for this passage as that of our own conduct towards our enemies being prefect just as God’s conduct to them is also perfect, for he blesses both the good and the wicked equally with regard to the physical blessings and disasters of this world (verse 45) irespective of this conduct. There is therefore nothing about sinless perfection in the immediate context to Matthew 5:48 and so introducing it at verse 48 would seem to me to be somewhat forced upon the text itself in the light of the preceding context! Perfection is spoken of only in the light of our own loving conduct in the face of our enemies wicked actions towards us.

That physical perfection isn’t the context for this passage is obvious to me from passages such as Romans 8:23 where even in a post-resurrection context we still await the redemption of our physical bodies! This means that whilst our souls are saved at the moment of repentance i.e. of true saving faith. Nonetheless, our physical bodies aren’t yet redeemed, but will be so after either Christ’s return or possibly after the 1,000 year millennial reign (if you’re a firm futurist). This is an excellent argument against the modern healing movement as it explains why people; even mature and godly Christians still get sick today: It’s because their bodies haven’t as yet been redeemed. For if our bodies had been also healed together with our souls at the moment of our conversion then we would not be able to ever die, or get sick, but would live forever in perfect and flawless bodies. The consequence of this is that Christian under torture would not be freed from such severe pain by death, but could be tortured endlessly, for being saved in both soul and body the Christian would consequently not be able to die and so could be tortured continuously. This is probably why God has in his mercy not as yet healed our physical bodies and why as Christians we suffer frequent illnesses, get sick and die.

Hi Iron Bladder,

You are not reading the ENTIRE CONTEXT. Certainly part of the commandments of Yeshua IS to turn the other cheek, bless enemies ect. That is a part of his teachings. If you start at the BEGINNING of the context you see that indeed he is giving them instructions and commands.

16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then after giving his commands in Chapter 5 he continues on in Chapters 6-7 giving more! He sums it all up by saying this:

21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21

So if one fails to live consistently in the Fathers will he should not expect to enter the Kingdom. So throngs of believers are lied to and promised Heaven by their teachers whether they do Gods will or they dont.

[mfblume]

Mat 5:47-48 KJV And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? (48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus spoke of going all the way with righteousness and not only partway as the Publicans did. That is the reason we read of the publicans doing no more than saluting brethren alone before we read of being perfect. be complete.

But all these things Christ admonishes us to do can only be done through the Spirit's empowerment and not our fleshly efforts.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

The state of the believer is usually quite different from his standing. His state involves his walk, which is generally much below the perfect standing that God, by His grace, has given him. This lower condition of his state in no way takes away from his perfect standing, but it does make him realize his unworthiness, and urges him to endeavor to raise his state to be more in conformity with his standing. This is the divine order under grace, to give the highest possible standing and then exhort the believer to maintain a state in accordance with it.

The only basis I have for offering myself as "a spiritual act of worship unto God" is the holy standing I have in Christ which is a standing in which I have been perfected forever (Heb.10:14).

I agree totally. Ephesians follows this pattern. We read of Christ's seating above all power and names in chapter 1, and then read of our position with Him, seated in heavenly places in chapter 2. Chapter 4 then tells us to live worthy of this vocation. IOW, behave like it now, and let it work its way into our lifestyle and walk. AND IT IS POSSIBLE!

Eph 4:1 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Once we get this into our spirits, we will expect to rise above sinfulness in behaviour, for we know we are dead to it and seated above it, in Christ. But we must be made aware of this position before we can enjoy the experience.

I liken it to the Red Sea crossing which gives us position with Christ. The Jordan crossing stands as crossing over into BEHAVIOUR.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Our sins are not imputed to us when we have them washed away when we repent and are baptized. You build your theory on a wrong premise that throughout the life of a believer Yeshua will not impute sin to him.

If that were true why is the Lord warning the Sardis Christians on this wise?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Would Yeshua threaten these believers with blotting them out of the book of life if they had NOT SINNED? Obviously he is charging them with sin.

Their garments were defiled=sin in their lives=name blotted out of book.

The law they are sinning against is the law of Christ.

Only those who are obedient to his commands (law) will be worthy to enter the gates of Heaven.

14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

All this talk about our standing with Yeshua not changing because of sin is easily exposed by the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

And they uniformly present us with the true standard which is living as an overcomer as to obedience.

Our sins are not imputed to us when we have them washed away when we repent and are baptized.

Baptismal sin remission is a whole other topic which I'll only briefly address. I understand that NT baptisms were baptisms of "repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). Sin remission came at repentance. Baptism was the outward expression of "repentance for the remission of sins." Sin remission was received the moment the repentant heart turned to Christ in faith. (Baptism was the external token of this conversion, much like a wedding ring is the external token of marriage.) Acts 2:38 could then be understood as teaching that one was to repent and let his baptism (of repentance for the remission of sins - Lk3:3; Mk1:4) be in the name of Jesus Christ to declare that the repentant heart had trusted in Jesus Christ for deliverance from sin.

You build your theory on a wrong premise that throughout the life of a believer Yeshua will not impute sin to him.

My premise is that we are perpetually justified in Christ, while your premise is that we must be repetitively re-justified. My premise bases justification on Christ's righteousness perpetually imputed, while your premise bases justification on your own ability to continually live above sin well enough that you constantly remain "right" in God's eyes. If you goof, you need to "get right with God." Once "right again" you can be re-declared as having reestablished right standing before God, i.e., re-justified.

My premise recognizes we are created in Christ unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). We who are first newly created and have right status with God bear the righteous fruit of good works. The imputed righteous condition (our status before God) engenders actual righteous action. The righteous status before God is perpetuated by a constant imputation of Christ's righteousness to us by faith alone in Christ alone. Your premise, on the other hand, demands your good works to perpetuate the right status. The status of being right before God and remaining a new creature results from your ability to continue in good works. Your right status depends on your ability to mimic the righteousness of Christ rather than on the righteousness of Christ itself. Rather than being created in Christ unto good/righteous works, like the Scripture says, your premise demands us to accept that good/righteous works perpetuate the creation and keep us in Christ. I believe your premise is backwards. The foundation of your saved condition shifts from what Christ did for you to what you try to do for him, it shifts from reliance on his perfect righteousness to reliance on your attempt at mimicking his perfection.

Concerning Sardis:

Christ said their reputation was that they were alive while, in reality, they were dead. Their works deceived others into thinking they were alive yet something was wrong in their spirit which caused Christ to label them "dead." The bible speaks of but one sin unto death, and I believe it to be the sin of unbelief. I suggest we recognize that the author of Revelation has already dealt in his previous epistles with the heresy of gnosticism which at its core denied the bodily existence and/or resurrection of Christ and that it is very possible he is addressing some of the same concerns here. It is very possible the faith of some in Sardis is being called into question.

The issue of their confession of faith would also be supported by the later reference in Rev 3:5 of the overcomer having his name confessed before the Father and the angels. Luke 12:8 tells us who Christ will confess before the angels. It is those who have a true confession of Christ (....Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God). Also, their "garments" were said to be defiled. Isaiah 61:10 speaks of garments of salvation and a robe of righteousness. What would defile these garments more than a heretical view of Christ? If righteousness is via faith in Christ and their faith is now questionable then their garments would be considered as defiled.

You mention the blessedness of those who "do his commandments." I would simply point out that 1John 3:23-24 outright mentions what these commandments are:

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.......

I am curious as to how you would define the "law of Christ."

[Michael The Disciple]

Adino

My premise is that we are perpetually justified in Christ, while your premise is that we must be repetitively re-justified. My premise bases justification on Christ's righteousness perpetually imputed, while your premise bases justification on your own ability to continually live above sin well enough that you constantly remain "right" in God's eyes. If you goof, you need to "get right with God." Once "right again" you can be re-declared as having reestablished right standing before God, i.e., re-justified.

What a straw man! No it is not about YOUR OWN ABILITY to live above sin. It is about the death of self and the empowering of the Holy Ghost in a life.

It looks like this:

12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Your concept falls short of the glory of God. It is HE who is working mightily in a Spirit filled believer. He is a NEW CREATION made so for the PURPOSE of good works. Also notice verse 12 lets us know the Philippian Christians ALWAYS OBEYED not that they sinned every day as many testify to today.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What a straw man! No it is not about YOUR OWN ABILITY to live above sin. It is about the death of self and the empowering of the Holy Ghost in a life.

It looks like this:

12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Your concept falls short of the glory of God. It is HE who is working mightily in a Spirit filled believer. He is a NEW CREATION made so for the PURPOSE of good works. Also notice verse 12 lets us know the Philippian Christians ALWAYS OBEYED not that they sinned every day as many testify to today.

We have here the classic differences of the reformation. The difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. You, of course, are taking the Catholic position.

Is justification a work of God's grace IN CHRIST or a work of God's grace IN MAN. Is it based on the righteous person and works of Christ alone or is it based on the righteous person and works of man as he is empowered by the Spirit? Are we justified on the basis of an imputed righteousness or on the basis of an actual righteousness engendered/enabled by the Spirit of God in man?

If the answer is the latter I have to ask.... just how much personal righteousness is enough to merit justification before God? Do this for me.... go sell all you have and give it to the poor then get back with me. If you cannot, you have failed miserably just like the gentleman in Scripture who could not do the same. He thought he lived up to the requirements of God to the fullest, yet Christ, in his request, pointed out to him he couldn't even keep the spirit of the first commandment let alone the rest. Sell ALL you have and give it to the poor..... then you'll still need to tell us just how much righteousness is actually enough to satisfy the demands of God.

Until you rest in the finished work of Christ.... you have not entered into his rest.

God bless, friend.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree totally. Ephesians follows this pattern. We read of Christ's seating above all power and names in chapter 1, and then read of our position with Him, seated in heavenly places in chapter 2. Chapter 4 then tells us to live worthy of this vocation. IOW, behave like it now, and let it work its way into our lifestyle and walk. AND IT IS POSSIBLE!

Eph 4:1 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Once we get this into our spirits, we will expect to rise above sinfulness in behaviour, for we know we are dead to it and seated above it, in Christ. But we must be made aware of this position before we can enjoy the experience.

I liken it to the Red Sea crossing which gives us position with Christ. The Jordan crossing stands as crossing over into BEHAVIOUR.

This is the challenge among most works oriented Pentecostals. It's very difficult for people who don't have a true revelation of grace, to accept that salvation is a gift of God and must be received by faith apart from works. That one cannot save themselves is even offensive to some people. I guess it's the pride of natural man that demands that one save himself, rather than simply living out a salvation that has been freely given through faith in Jesus Christ.

[Michael The Disciple]

So mfblume are you saying that our standing with Christ (our salvation) can never change? That is what Adino is saying. Truly Blessed is saying it cannot change as long as we live but can after we die.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Adino

We have here the classic differences of the reformation. The difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. You, of course, are taking the Catholic position.

Is justification a work of God's grace IN CHRIST or a work of God's grace IN MAN. Is it based on the righteous person and works of Christ alone or is it based on the righteous person and works of man as he is empowered by the Spirit? Are we justified on the basis of an imputed righteousness or on the basis of an actual righteousness engendered/enabled by the Spirit of God in man?

If the answer is the latter I have to ask.... just how much personal righteousness is enough to merit justification before God? Do this for me.... go sell all you have and give it to the poor then get back with me. If you cannot, you have failed miserably just like the gentleman in Scripture who could not do the same. He thought he lived up to the requirements of God to the fullest, yet Christ, in his request, pointed out to him he couldn't even keep the spirit of the first commandment let alone the rest. Sell ALL you have and give it to the poor..... then you'll still need to tell us just how much righteousness is actually enough to satisfy the demands of God.

Until you rest in the finished work of Christ.... you have not entered into his rest.

God bless, friend.

Adino,

You have a CONCEPT. The problem is a very large one in that it does not agree in many verses of scripture with statements made by Yeshua and the Apostles.