Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Not sure what crimes you are referring to.

He was wanted in connection with marrying off young girls to older men. Not sure how many counts he has against him.

Okay I will look it up under the public records in Texas.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

However, on CNN, I heard that the mothers COULD have stayed with their children, had they gone to the shelter/safe house with them. From what I understood the mothers decided to go back to the compound WITHOUT their children.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Actually, they wanted the women to go to a separate women's shelter (without their children), so the women chose to go home instead. (They were allowed to choose home or the shelter.)

"A group of women from a polygamist sect's Texas ranch returned to the compound Monday after authorities separated them from the 400-plus children now in state custody...mothers of children 5 and older were told they could not remain with the children but could go back to the ranch or to a women's shelter." www.cnn.com

[DanielR]

Although the laws says what the law says, I find this entire issue and the responses of Christian people troubling when compared to what God allowed and in some cases commanded in the Old Testament.

Again I'm not speaking American law here. According to Jewish traditions children are considered adults at the age of 13, thus the reason for the coming of age ceremonies that is the custom of the Jewish people since they left Egypt (if not before). Even as late as the 19th century right here in America it was common practice to marry off the daughters while they were yet teens (as these young ladies are) Although I haven't studied it out for myself, but I understand that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably in her early teens, possibly as young as 12 when she gave birth to the Lord. If that is the case, at what age does God say a child becomes a young adult?

As far as polygamy, just by reading the old testament it's plain to see that God permits the practice, and in at least one occation in the law, it is a command. "If your brother dies without children then you are to take his wife as your own and raise up children unto your brother" As God was dealing with David over the adultry and murder concidering Bathsheba, God said to David "if you had asked for more wives, would not I have given them to you" at this time David already had multiple wives. There is nowhere in scripture where God says that polygomy is no longer permitted. There are two scriptures in the new testament that state "man of one wife", but both of those references are about leadership in the church. One is talking about the office of Bishop, and the other the office of Deacon. Men desiring those positions need to be able to display their leadership qualities, which having a family in control speaks to, but also not too much responsability at home to prevent them from fullfilling the desired office.

Another common practice was arranged marriages. Just this weekend I talked to a Jewish man that is in an arranged marriage 25 years strong, arranged by the grandparents of both him and his wife. It is a marriage by God himself. After 25 years he can't remember having a serious disagreement with his wife, yes a small one here or there but nothing serious. I've gone through a divorce, and although I do not regret any time that I had with the wife of my youth, I think that I would have been spared the trouble that I had in marriage if I had my parents arrange my marriage for me. As crass as it sounds, young people think with their hormones, while their parents look at the big picture and have the experience to see the possible problems before they even begin. I'm trying to think of a biblical reference to a marriage that comes close to what we currently have, the closest two that I can think of is 1)where Sampson asked his parents to get Delilah for him. Although, his parents disaproved of this, they relented and got Delilah for him. 2)Jacob in his deisre of Rachel, but he had to marry Leah to get the prise he wanted, but Jacob was making the deals with the gils' father and not the girls themselves. So even those examples are still arranged marriages. There may in fact be example of marriages simular to what we currently have, but I'm just not thinking of any with clear biblical references.

Too often we look at things through the eye of our society, and not through the eyes of what God did and does say about it. Contrary to popular belief, American laws and society do not reflect Gods law or what he has allowed to insure that every woman has a good man to cling to (whether or not he has another wife besides)

But American Law says some things different, and that's the law of the land. But I don't understand the outcry from Christians about this practice when it's no different that what was practiced in the Bible.

Daniel

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

So no one minds that girls were being forced into marriage and pregnancy at a very young age, as well as being forced to marry men 5 times their age?

I define that as abuse, not "polygamy."

If an adult woman wants to choose a life of polygamy, big deal. But children should be allowed a choice, and they can't choose until they are adults.

The fact that younger men were basically ran out of the compound so the older men could have more wives, or younger wives is sickening in and of itself.
If a UPCI church or pastor was advocating the abuse of children, would anyone defend it/him?

I get the flip side of the coin--which sort of has to do with the fact that the children have been brought up this way, so it is "normal" to them. I also don't think its good for them to be separated from their mothers. There is no need for that. It's like the state is trying to detox them from their religious beliefs and polygamist lifestyle. That part is a bit frightening. But I agree with the part about protecting these young girls from early marriage and pregnancy.

Got news for you. not all were run out some have brought complaint that they have been raped by these men as well. Not from this new incident but from past incidents. Jeffs and his brother were accused by their own cousin of raping him as a young man.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by DanielR

Although the laws says what the law says, I find this entire issue and the responses of Christian people troubling when compared to what God allowed and in some cases commanded in the Old Testament.

Again I'm not speaking American law here. According to Jewish traditions children are considered adults at the age of 13, thus the reason for the coming of age ceremonies that is the custom of the Jewish people since they left Egypt (if not before). Even as late as the 19th century right here in America it was common practice to marry off the daughters while they were yet teens (as these young ladies are) Although I haven't studied it out for myself, but I understand that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably in her early teens, possibly as young as 12 when she gave birth to the Lord. If that is the case, at what age does God say a child becomes a young adult?

As far as polygamy, just by reading the old testament it's plain to see that God permits the practice, and in at least one occation in the law, it is a command. "If your brother dies without children then you are to take his wife as your own and raise up children unto your brother" As God was dealing with David over the adultry and murder concidering Bathsheba, God said to David "if you had asked for more wives, would not I have given them to you" at this time David already had multiple wives. There is nowhere in scripture where God says that polygomy is no longer permitted. There are two scriptures in the new testament that state "man of one wife", but both of those references are about leadership in the church. One is talking about the office of Bishop, and the other the office of Deacon. Men desiring those positions need to be able to display their leadership qualities, which having a family in control speaks to, but also not too much responsability at home to prevent them from fullfilling the desired office.

Another common practice was arranged marriages. Just this weekend I talked to a Jewish man that is in an arranged marriage 25 years strong, arranged by the grandparents of both him and his wife. It is a marriage by God himself. After 25 years he can't remember having a serious disagreement with his wife, yes a small one here or there but nothing serious. I've gone through a divorce, and although I do not regret any time that I had with the wife of my youth, I think that I would have been spared the trouble that I had in marriage if I had my parents arrange my marriage for me. As crass as it sounds, young people think with their hormones, while their parents look at the big picture and have the experience to see the possible problems before they even begin. I'm trying to think of a biblical reference to a marriage that comes close to what we currently have, the closest two that I can think of is 1)where Sampson asked his parents to get Delilah for him. Although, his parents disaproved of this, they relented and got Delilah for him. 2)Jacob in his deisre of Rachel, but he had to marry Leah to get the prise he wanted, but Jacob was making the deals with the gils' father and not the girls themselves. So even those examples are still arranged marriages. There may in fact be example of marriages simular to what we currently have, but I'm just not thinking of any with clear biblical references.

Too often we look at things through the eye of our society, and not through the eyes of what God did and does say about it. Contrary to popular belief, American laws and society do not reflect Gods law or what he has allowed to insure that every woman has a good man to cling to (whether or not he has another wife besides)

But American Law says some things different, and that's the law of the land. But I don't understand the outcry from Christians about this practice when it's no different that what was practiced in the Bible.

Daniel

You make some valid points, but there is absolutely NO WAY I would let my daughter marry at 13. She's twelve now and has a good future ahead of her, once she gets through high school and college. The simple truth is that many things have changed for women since the Bible was written, and I don't think it would be fair to try to apply those practices today.

I can see how important parental involvement in marriage decisions is, and plan on being actively involved in my children's choices for a spouse. However, the choice will be theirs to make, not mine. If I feel one of them is making a mistake I have every intention of getting right in their way, and I am very good at getting in their way if they are making a mistake.

Bottom line is that women have gained a lot of ground since Bible days. Also, for every successful arranged marriage I am sure there is at least one where the people involved never loved each other, never bonded, and never got to experience that bond that married people share.

Lastly, we are not talking about young girls marrying young boys. We are talking about men old enough to be a young girl's grandfather! That's wrong, I don't care who you are! It infuriates me to think of a man in his 50s marrying a girl of 13! It's child molestation, plain and simple! There's more to being unequally yoked than just marriages between saved and unsaved people.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Got news for you. not all were run out some have brought complaint that they have been raped by these men as well. Not from this new incident but from past incidents. Jeffs and his brother were accused by their own cousin of raping him as a young man.

Yes, I heard/read that as well.

[jaxfam6]

Originally Posted by DanielR

Although the laws says what the law says, I find this entire issue and the responses of Christian people troubling when compared to what God allowed and in some cases commanded in the Old Testament.

Again I'm not speaking American law here. According to Jewish traditions children are considered adults at the age of 13, thus the reason for the coming of age ceremonies that is the custom of the Jewish people since they left Egypt (if not before). Even as late as the 19th century right here in America it was common practice to marry off the daughters while they were yet teens (as these young ladies are) Although I haven't studied it out for myself, but I understand that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably in her early teens, possibly as young as 12 when she gave birth to the Lord. If that is the case, at what age does God say a child becomes a young adult?

As far as polygamy, just by reading the old testament it's plain to see that God permits the practice, and in at least one occation in the law, it is a command. "If your brother dies without children then you are to take his wife as your own and raise up children unto your brother" As God was dealing with David over the adultry and murder concidering Bathsheba, God said to David "if you had asked for more wives, would not I have given them to you" at this time David already had multiple wives. There is nowhere in scripture where God says that polygomy is no longer permitted. There are two scriptures in the new testament that state "man of one wife", but both of those references are about leadership in the church. One is talking about the office of Bishop, and the other the office of Deacon. Men desiring those positions need to be able to display their leadership qualities, which having a family in control speaks to, but also not too much responsability at home to prevent them from fullfilling the desired office.

Another common practice was arranged marriages. Just this weekend I talked to a Jewish man that is in an arranged marriage 25 years strong, arranged by the grandparents of both him and his wife. It is a marriage by God himself. After 25 years he can't remember having a serious disagreement with his wife, yes a small one here or there but nothing serious. I've gone through a divorce, and although I do not regret any time that I had with the wife of my youth, I think that I would have been spared the trouble that I had in marriage if I had my parents arrange my marriage for me. As crass as it sounds, young people think with their hormones, while their parents look at the big picture and have the experience to see the possible problems before they even begin. I'm trying to think of a biblical reference to a marriage that comes close to what we currently have, the closest two that I can think of is 1)where Sampson asked his parents to get Delilah for him. Although, his parents disaproved of this, they relented and got Delilah for him. 2)Jacob in his deisre of Rachel, but he had to marry Leah to get the prise he wanted, but Jacob was making the deals with the gils' father and not the girls themselves. So even those examples are still arranged marriages. There may in fact be example of marriages simular to what we currently have, but I'm just not thinking of any with clear biblical references.

Too often we look at things through the eye of our society, and not through the eyes of what God did and does say about it. Contrary to popular belief, American laws and society do not reflect Gods law or what he has allowed to insure that every woman has a good man to cling to (whether or not he has another wife besides)

But American Law says some things different, and that's the law of the land. But I don't understand the outcry from Christians about this practice when it's no different that what was practiced in the Bible.

Daniel

Daniel If I remember right no young lady in the Bible was ever FORCED to marry an older man. At least none that were in accord with God.
These men are going against the laws of this country by forcing marriages and sex onto young girls. I think Christians in this country have a right to be angered by what went on. I personally think America has been far to relaxed in dealing with this group. Personally I believe these men to be perverted pedophiles. They use their religion to practice it. Maybe Israel did marry their children young but that was a whole differnt place and time. Some countries may still practice it but we do not practice it here and since it is not against any God given laws then they should follow the law. I am afraid I would probably want to kill any man or woman that forced themselves onto my child. Any that comes asking me to marry my child to them is going to get similar treatment.

notice I didn't say I would but I certainly would want to.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by DanielR

Although the laws says what the law says, I find this entire issue and the responses of Christian people troubling when compared to what God allowed and in some cases commanded in the Old Testament.

Again I'm not speaking American law here. According to Jewish traditions children are considered adults at the age of 13, thus the reason for the coming of age ceremonies that is the custom of the Jewish people since they left Egypt (if not before). Even as late as the 19th century right here in America it was common practice to marry off the daughters while they were yet teens (as these young ladies are) Although I haven't studied it out for myself, but I understand that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably in her early teens, possibly as young as 12 when she gave birth to the Lord. If that is the case, at what age does God say a child becomes a young adult?

As far as polygamy, just by reading the old testament it's plain to see that God permits the practice, and in at least one occation in the law, it is a command. "If your brother dies without children then you are to take his wife as your own and raise up children unto your brother" As God was dealing with David over the adultry and murder concidering Bathsheba, God said to David "if you had asked for more wives, would not I have given them to you" at this time David already had multiple wives. There is nowhere in scripture where God says that polygomy is no longer permitted. There are two scriptures in the new testament that state "man of one wife", but both of those references are about leadership in the church. One is talking about the office of Bishop, and the other the office of Deacon. Men desiring those positions need to be able to display their leadership qualities, which having a family in control speaks to, but also not too much responsability at home to prevent them from fullfilling the desired office.

Another common practice was arranged marriages. Just this weekend I talked to a Jewish man that is in an arranged marriage 25 years strong, arranged by the grandparents of both him and his wife. It is a marriage by God himself. After 25 years he can't remember having a serious disagreement with his wife, yes a small one here or there but nothing serious. I've gone through a divorce, and although I do not regret any time that I had with the wife of my youth, I think that I would have been spared the trouble that I had in marriage if I had my parents arrange my marriage for me. As crass as it sounds, young people think with their hormones, while their parents look at the big picture and have the experience to see the possible problems before they even begin. I'm trying to think of a biblical reference to a marriage that comes close to what we currently have, the closest two that I can think of is 1)where Sampson asked his parents to get Delilah for him. Although, his parents disaproved of this, they relented and got Delilah for him. 2)Jacob in his deisre of Rachel, but he had to marry Leah to get the prise he wanted, but Jacob was making the deals with the gils' father and not the girls themselves. So even those examples are still arranged marriages. There may in fact be example of marriages simular to what we currently have, but I'm just not thinking of any with clear biblical references.

Too often we look at things through the eye of our society, and not through the eyes of what God did and does say about it. Contrary to popular belief, American laws and society do not reflect Gods law or what he has allowed to insure that every woman has a good man to cling to (whether or not he has another wife besides)

But American Law says some things different, and that's the law of the land. But I don't understand the outcry from Christians about this practice when it's no different that what was practiced in the Bible.

Daniel

I am assuming you are a man by your name, go figure. So you are saying that God condones rape of children? The parents didn't arrange the (marriages), Mr. Jeffs did although apparently the parents went along with it.
If he arranged marriages between adults it would be different. And of course he got rid of the young boys so there wouldn't be any hormonal problems as you referred to, but rather older men lusting after young girls, but of course they were only doing it to propagate polygamy and God's laws. Is that your argument? Or did I miss something?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Rico

You make some valid points, but there is absolutely NO WAY I would let my daughter marry at 13. She's twelve now and has a good future ahead of her, once she gets through high school and college. The simple truth is that many things have changed for women since the Bible was written, and I don't think it would be fair to try to apply those practices today.

I can see how important parental involvement in marriage decisions is, and plan on being actively involved in my children's choices for a spouse. However, the choice will be theirs to make, not mine. If I feel one of them is making a mistake I have every intention of getting right in their way, and I am very good at getting in their way if they are making a mistake.

Bottom line is that women have gained a lot of ground since Bible days. Also, for every successful arranged marriage I am sure there is at least one where the people involved never loved each other, never bonded, and never got to experience that bond that married people share.

Lastly, we are not talking about young girls marrying young boys. We are talking about men old enough to be a young girl's grandfather! That's wrong, I don't care who you are! It infuriates me to think of a man in his 50s marrying a girl of 13! It's child molestation, plain and simple! There's more to being unequally yoked than just marriages between saved and unsaved people.

I completely agree with you, Rico. I know that our religious freedoms are being infringed upon a little bit more every day, but this is one instance when the [state/federal] government NEEDED to step in, IMO. The local law enforcement has been practically useless.

My oldest daughter is now 12, and she is nowhere NEAR ready for marriage or sex. Not physically, mentally or emotionally. As a mother, I cannot IMAGINE or comprehend what kind of parent would want their child involved in sex or, worse, pregnancy at such an immature stage. Brainwashing and ignorance aside, I feel as much distaste for the mothers of these girls as I do for the men in this sect. I understand that many of them probably grew up the same way and its "all they've known", but there has to be something called common sense.

[Cindy]

Mr. Jeffs was on the top 10 most wanted by the FBI because of sex crimes in Utah and Arizona.