Reason enough to leave?

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

I found this last sentence to be interesting... Is this true brethren? Isn't the law good, as Paul said? Isn't it a schoolmaster? Isn't the Law of the Lord perfect, converting the soul? Or did I take all those phrases out of context, and maybe make up a few phrases? I'm not trying to be critical (in a bad sense), I just want to get a better understanding of this sentence given to us by Bro. Larry.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Alex, it's not true.

It's a misconception that was started in the second century by a heretic named Marcion, who Polycarp, John's disciple, called the spawn of satan himself due to his heresies like that.

Yet today we see it all over the church world.

The Law does not bring curses on people. Breaking the Law does.

Which part of the Law is evil? Which part of the Law is the part folks don't want to live by?

I'm not talking about the ceremonial laws, so I hope no one comes here and starts throwing out "don't wear polyesther and rayon" or whatever...

I'm talking about "Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself". That's the synopsis of the entire Law... Jesus himself said it. So... how does living under that bring a curse?

[tv1a]

A little more context. That preacher is gone overboard. I bet there are a lot of frustrated marriages in that church. Anyone want to speculate what's going on in that church if he allows the internet?

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I only posted three pages of the standard handout. There was also a multi page study guide with even more ludicrous positions in it.
In other posts I told the story of a young lady who had just gotten married and was sitting in this class. She is "cursed" with a very irregular period which can last from 3 to 14 days and seems to come at random times. She was told point blank that nothing can "happen" during this period AND during the 7 days following due to the Levitical cleansing period. Throw into the mix that "nothing was to happen" on Sunday or Sat night (because it is of course proceeded by Sunday -in a Monty Pythonisque sort of way), and their sex life was reduced down to a couple of days a month.
A few months after we left, she called my wife in tears because her AND HER HUSBAND got to "fooling around" on a... <gasp>.... Sunday afternoon and she was racked with guilt because she had gone against the pastors teachings on marital sex.
In this case there are THREE people at fault: The pastor for throwing this ridiculas doctrine at people and denying to them everything that God has granted, and 2) This lady for LISTENING to him and 3) her husband for not putting his foot down.

But yes, when strange doctrine rears its ugly head, I very much feel like you need to run as fast as your chubby little legs will carry you.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Crazy thing is is that it has the exact opposite effect. The whole reason for this stuff is to HAVE as many babies as possible. My wifes cousins wife is on her 4th kid and has become pregnant an average of 8-9 weeks after having the last one. They follow this teaching religiously and do not plan on stopping.

Good grief, that sounds weird to me. I don't think that is very sound teaching.

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by Bro-Larry

God love ya, Bro Alex, but you seem to be very wise beyond your years. Never stop learing.

You are right, anytime you see self-indulgence in any form, you will always find that it is only the tip of the iceberg. Beneath is a large chunk of Pharaseeism, legalism, bondage, and other sins as well. Anything associated with the law brings a curse. Bro-Larry

I have seen all kinds of spin on this issue, but Deut 28:15-68 lists fifty-eight verses of curses. That's part of the Mitzvah. Everything changed after the cross. Now, (after the cross) if you try to be saved by the works of the law (Mitzvah), and then you offend in one point, you place yourself under
the curse of the law (Gal 3:10) "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Some spin it as the Mitzvah, some spin it as God's moral law, or ceremonial law but unless you are trusting in the finished work of Jesus, you are under the curse. The curse of the law is threefold: poverty, sickness and spiritual death.

There are lots and lots of good Apostolic people in our churches, but many are trying to be good enough in the own self efforts. Show me one person, except Jesus, who has ever been good enough to make it by their own self efforts, and I'll recant my position on this issue.

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by Ronzo

Alex, it's not true.

It's a misconception that was started in the second century by a heretic named Marcion, who Polycarp, John's disciple, called the spawn of satan himself due to his heresies like that.

Yet today we see it all over the church world.

The Law does not bring curses on people. Breaking the Law does.

Which part of the Law is evil? Which part of the Law is the part folks don't want to live by?

I'm not talking about the ceremonial laws, so I hope no one comes here and starts throwing out "don't wear polyesther and rayon" or whatever...

I'm talking about "Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself". That's the synopsis of the entire Law... Jesus himself said it. So... how does living under that bring a curse?

Bro. Ronzo, With all due respect, You show me one person who has never broken the law, except Jesus. All men have fallen under the curse of the law.

You yourself don't love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, neither do you love your neighbor as yourself. It's impossible. That's why the law was given: to show man that he could not please God by his own efforts. The law was our tutor who said, " you can't do it, look to Jesus".

Originally Posted by Bro-Larry

Bro. Ronzo, With all due respect, You show me one person who has never broken the law, except Jesus. All men have fallen under the curse of the law.

The CURSE of the law is the curse of the law of sin and death, not the Law of God.

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by Bro-Larry

God love ya, Bro Alex, but you seem to be very wise beyond your years. Never stop learing.

You are right, anytime you see self-indulgence in any form, you will always find that it is only the tip of the iceberg. Beneath is a large chunk of Pharaseeism, legalism, bondage, and other sins as well. Anything associated with the law brings a curse. Bro-Larry

Correction: "learning" LOL

[Bro-Larry]

No disagreement here on this.

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Gal 3:13)

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

Oh please... the preaching get too hard?! A ton of other religions have standards concerning sexual relations... even within marriage. Plus, the Israelites, ALL 3 million of them (so a few hundred thousand) married couples did this and they were fine. Now, as for it being binding on NT believers, well I don't know about that, but I surely wouldn't have left. I would have listened dilligently, and studied like the Bereans did. I would have consulted with the pastor(s) and others. Who knows, maybe I'd be one who would "see the light" in this teaching. I haven't come across any of these people, and am not married and neither do I pastor married people (or anyone for that matter), so I have no need of this teaching, but that doesn't mean I'd just discard it. Proverbs 18:13 says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." I'm not all for sticking with a church for anything, obviously, I'd leave for bad doctrine, but this is a standard, taught in sincerity and through study, deserves the consideration of those who are present at the study, and it can be studied, debated, ect...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Fist of all Alex, your condescending tone is unnecessary.

Second.. you claim that a ton of other religions have standards for sexual relations within marriage. Please tell me... what in the world do "other religions" marriaage & sexual standards have to with us Apostolic Christians? (The answer would be: "absolutely nothing")

Furthermore ... You said you wouldn't have left, and that Randy & Wife should have studied like the Bereans before leaving? OK.. Well how long does it take for you to recognize erroneous teaching? 2 hours?. 2 days? 2 weeks of "consultations" with the person teaching it ? Whats your time limit before it would have been okay for them to leave? As for me, it took me only 5 minutes to confirm that what what this man is teaching is an unscriptural application of old Testament law, being applied to Christians who are not under the law to begin with. If you recognize false doctrine, you have the right to leave that church environment as you see fit, when you see fit. Plain and simple.

The bigger issue here is control, and bondage. Too many pastors make up man-man rules for their church to follow, based on their personal convictions -- teachings often created by a misreading or misapplication of scripture. They put unscriptural burdens on their people, and expect folks to walk in lockstep. Pastors too often apply their "house rules", and personal preferences, and try to make it sound like biblically based doctrine.

Personally, I might have sat down with my pastor at least once to get further clarification before leaving. But I don't criticize those who left immediately in this case. The pastor's reasoning was already pretty clear. He clearly spelled out his reasoning on paper, with his scripture references and his explanations. At the end of the day, his teaching/revelation or whatever he considers it does not stand up to scripture. I would have left myself. At the end of the day, my loyalty is to the word of God, not to any pastor and his teaching.

PS...

When you get married one day, and you and your spouse find yourselves having to decide and choose whether to conduct your sexual relations based on the Word of God, or based on some handout your pastor typed up... lets see if you 'll be okay with having your bedroom rules set by your pastor.

[RandyWayne]

There is so much wrong with this teaching that it is hard to actually pick out specifics. One thing that made my wife irate was the claim that not following certain abstinence periods can cause a 20% increase in Down's Syndrome -which is a blatant lie!
So much of this ties future problems with the "sin" of not following these 'rules'. Problems with a pregnancy or the baby? Must be the mothers fault for allowing sin into her life! (Incidentally this is also why I disagree so much with the idea on other threads that sickness is caused by sin....)