A tremendous, awesome what?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Chan

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

There's a specific reason why I use that exact phrase and I would have expected you to know that from the context of where I've used it. I use it because the emotional "frenzy" (wild, reckless emotional abandon) is being induced or (for all intents and purposes) manufactured by MAN through the use of music (volume, speed, etc.) or preaching (volume, style, etc.). It is not the same thing as David's genuine and spontaneous praise when he was returning the Ark to Jerusalem.

The "frenzy" I witness is often in response to what we feel in the Spirit AND OR in response to the uplifting music which inspires people to praise, rejoice or otherwise edify them. And I have witnessed it without the music as well. Having said that, that does not mean that some people are just responding to the music only. David responded to the Ark returning to Jerusalem...he was happy. He was obviously edified and Music was a very important part of their "worship"

In any event, Paul specifically commanded "Let everything be done decently and in order" and this clearly precludes any kind of wild, reckless abandon.

Paul said that in reference to the mis-use of the gifts of the Spirit.

It's a shame the way many Pentecostals attribute their emotional responses to the Spirit of God.

many Pentecostals attribute the emotional responses to what God has done for them recently or feeling the Spirit of God as they are "praising" Him....it's a shame that some people aren't able to experience such joy and emotion, but hardly a reason to criticism them all. Sure...some Pentecostals wrongly attribute emotional response to the direct "moving of the Spirit"....but given the original quote you have no evidence that is the case.

But David wasn't whipped up and he certainly wasn't in an emotional frenzy.

You sure about that? I really disagree

2Sa 6:12 David was told, "The Lord has blessed the family of Obed-Edom and everything he owns because of the ark of God." So David went and joyfully brought the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David.
2Sa 6:13 Those who carried the ark of the Lord took six steps and then David sacrificed an ox and a fatling calf.
2Sa 6:14 Now David, wearing a linen ephod, was dancing with all his strength before the Lord.
2Sa 6:15 David and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord, shouting and blowing trumpets.
2Sa 6:16 As the ark of the Lord entered the City of David, Saul's daughter Michal looked out the window. When she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him.

His praise was genuine and it was not being induced by someone else through their use of music or preaching (volume, style, etc.).

Wow...can you do that? I mean...sit in a service and look at others and say "that's persons praise is not genuine"? That's a gift I would not want..

God is continuously present IN His people and IN the Church. This notion of God "moving" is nothing more than a means for people to try to justify their wild emotionalism by pawning it off on God. "Let everything be done decently and in order."

If God is continually present...what SHOULD BE our proper response? Why can't we rejoice? Why can't we be exuberant? BTW saying they are pawning off their great joy and rejoicing on God is kind a sickening...like God would never want us to attribute rejoicing and joy to Him? This conversation is leaving a bad taste with me. When David was leaping and dancing...do you think he was stoic and emotionless? And what would He attribute it too? What? He just ate a great meal? I think, based on the scriptures I provided he would "pawn it off on God"....good grief! Don't leap. Don't dance. Don't do this and don't do that....it won't be genuine praise because...well it sounds like because they are Pentecostal...the music is going and they claim the Spirit of the Lord is moving...that's sad.

Having this boldness (more accurately "confidence") does not negate the kind of extreme awe and reverence we are to have toward God.

Nobody said we are NEVER to have extreme awe and reverence....we are talking about the presence of God and you said the presence of God is always here...so do we always act in such a way that is nothing but extreme reverence...no rejoicing..no praising..no testimony...Im having a problem understanding the point you are trying to make Chancellor.

It still doesn't negate the extreme awe and reverence we are to have toward God and, frankly, calling the wild, reckless emotional abandon many Pentecostals engage in "a move of God" or otherwise attributing our emotional expressions to God shows neither awe nor reverence toward God.

Chancellor you are being VERY subjective...what is wild? what is reckless emotional Abandon and what in the original quote you started this all off with qualifies as wild, reckless emotional abandon?

Second, I have yet to see anyone here call THAT "a move of God"...nor did I see anyone say their praise or emotion is a move of God...rather I have seen people say that their heartfelt PRAISE and Rejoicing was a response to the move of God's Spirit.

[Praxeas]

There you go basing things on "experience" instead of truth. It's the old "This is what I experienced, so it must be right" routine.

Chancellor....old friend...have you never EXPERIENCED God? Sorry, but since repenting of my sins I have had MANY experiences I have never had before...I have had visions. I have spoken in tongues.

Here is what I said

1Jn 3:20 that if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience and knows all things.
1Jn 3:21 Dear friends, if our conscience does not condemn us, we have confidence in the presence of God,
I have seen the presence of God in a wonderful way but in DIFFERENT operations. Sometimes it brought great rejoicing and others it brought great introspectiveness and re commitment and other times it just brought profound reverence with the face in the floor kind of groveling

Im curious how that is me basing anything on experience and "not on truth"...what an accusation! Wow...I only relayed my experience. I have given MANY scriptures where the presence of God is mentioned and the result was NOT ALWAYS THE SAME THING...My experience only exemplifies that. You have yet to define what "the presence of God" is and how it can ONLY result in One thing and one thing ONLY and not in different reactions or results which I "experienced" and showed from scriptures.

Clearly you are using the term "presence of the Lord" equivocally...on the one hand "presence of the Lord" as per your example was Isaiah seeing the Lord sitting on the throne...then it was John seeing the resurrected Jesus...then in the OT it was only the Priest entering behind the curtain...but THEN you said the presence of God never goes and indicated it's Him INSIDE us...

I see times IN THE BIBLE where the presence of God resulted in shouts of joy...weeping...dancing...prostration...fearfulnes s....trembling.....healing....revelation

That's not experience that is bible! My experiences only confirm what I read...that when God being present does not result in the same absolute singular thing over and over and over and over.

What does it mean for God to be present or to be in His presence?...really what we are talking about is the Spirit of God being present during a service where two or more are gathered...then again you gave that as an example...does that mean when two or more are NOT gathered in His name He is NOT "there"? But is he still in us? You don't see how there is a DIFFERENCE? Clearly from scriptures there IS a difference. A difference between God being present IN us and God being present IN our midst.

When one prostrates oneself, one may very well appear as a dead man.

Ok, I ask you again...is that the ONLY proper response and if so do you remain prostrate the entire time God is present?

You're not going to convince me that what John experienced was nothing more than being "slain" in the Spirit.
That's not the point. The point is Daniel's reaction was proper.

I don't see this as being a reaction...it was involuntary response..that is why they both NEEDED someone to come and touch them. Second of all the reason I raised Daniel is this was NOT God...it was an angel. WAs Daniel worshiping the angel?

Daniel wasn't rebuked for his reaction.

That's because he was not worshiping. This was an involuntary response...sort of like Peter falling into trance.

That Daniel was told to understand does not negate the appropriateness of Daniel's fear.

I never said it was not appropriate...Daniel though was not in reverent prostration to an angel and such a thing IS wrong and WILL be rebuked
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the saying of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Daniel fell as dead...he was not prostrating himself...he and john both fell as though they were dead....I doubt that was intentional reverence. It might have been involuntary fear not reverence fear...in other words John was scared out of his robe

It was both fearfulness and worship. The Spirit of God doesn't merely come into a meeting: He is already present because He is present in each of us.

But you admit the Spirit of God DOES come into a meeting...aren't we supposed to be reverent ALL the time? Does that mean we are continually to be physically prostrate? Or are we supposed to be doing that in Spirit...in our hearts?

Where does the BIBLE say the Spirit MOVES in a meeting?

Well didn't you just admit the Spirit of God comes into a meeting? Using anthropomorphisms I'd say God was moving. Or rather maybe it means the Spirit of the Lord "moves on us"
Jdg 13:25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Go look at what I quoted in the original post. What was actually the praise of the congregation was being called a move of God. READ THE WORDS!!!!

ok

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Chan

"We had a tremendous, awesome move of God in our service yesterday! The annointing and presence of God was so incredibly strong. . .people were running, shouting, jumping, getting slain. . .people that needed victory claimed it and received it, backsliders were finding their way back to an altar of prayer. . it was just AWESOME!! I know God is a prayer answering God and He meets the needs of His people, but I still get amazed when He stops by right when we need Him the most and just takes over! I had a very special need and God completely ministered to it and me yesterday. I feel so exhilerated!!!

See...I just don't see him distinguishing between this being "a move of God" and these being a RESULT of a move of God"....

Also are you saying backsliders finding their way back to an alter (I presume repented) is not "a move of God"?? See again I think we are back to definition. You are using your own definition subjectively and inserting it here..

I get out of this God was doing some awesome things there and as a result people were moved to rejoice...have faith for a need...even repent (backsliders)...

[HeavenlyOne]

Prax, kudos to you for trying, but you'd have an easier time trying to convince your automobile that it's a Porsche 911.....unless that's what you have.....LOL!

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See...I just don't see him distinguishing between this being "a move of God" and these being a RESULT of a move of God"....

Which is exactly the problem. He is attributing it to a move of God and is not saying that their emotional response was their response to a move of God. In other words, he was saying that the things THEY were doing was itself the move of God.

Also are you saying backsliders finding their way back to an alter (I presume repented) is not "a move of God"?? See again I think we are back to definition. You are using your own definition subjectively and inserting it here..

What I said in regard to this was "Isn't this what's supposed to be happening all the time? What is wrong in the Church today that we consider such things to be out of the ordinary?"

I get out of this God was doing some awesome things there and as a result people were moved to rejoice...have faith for a need...even repent (backsliders)...

But he never said WHAT God was doing. He equated all the human responses with the move of God as if to say "We had all these human responses: this is proof that God was moving."

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Chan

Which is exactly the problem. He is attributing it to a move of God and is not saying that their emotional response was their response to a move of God. In other words, he was saying that the things THEY were doing was itself the move of God.

Nope, that is not what he said. When I read it, it neither speculated that the things itself were a move of God or specifically that they were evidence of a move of God. But from everything he said, like backsliders praying through I gathered what he meant was this was the result of a move of God.

What I said in regard to this was "Isn't this what's supposed to be happening all the time? What is wrong in the Church today that we consider such things to be out of the ordinary?"

Well I agree this needs to be more common, but if that is the case why "poopoo" this happening and not rather encourage it to happen more?

But he never said WHAT God was doing. He equated all the human responses with the move of God as if to say "We had all these human responses: this is proof that God was moving."

He said backsliders were finding an alter again and that people were believing God for "victory" and were getting it (I can't remember what word he said) and he attributed that to "we have a move of God"....

As for your last statement....backsliders repenting and people believing God for some sort of victory and receiving it....why can't that be attributed to a move of God's Spirit? The Spirit brought conviction to those backsliders and maybe even a fearfulness or reverence so that they knew they were wrong and needed to get right?

And the Spirit of God gave faith...maybe the gift of faith was in operation (a Gift of the Spirit) and because of that members were able to believe more than before and receive things they had needed.

And can the move of God's Spirit bring Joy and fill one's heart with rejoicing? Might that result in people shouting, dancing...leaping etc etc?..

Maybe this person was saying "Wow...we had such a move of God (Note the order). People were restored to their relationship with God (backsliders)...people were able to believe God for things they had not before, people were rejoicing with shouts of praise, praying, crying, jumping, dancing etc etc"

That last part does not necessarily prove God was moving, however it's also not necessarily an isolated action that happens without the move of God either. You'd have to be there to know whether it was just a happy service where the saints endulged in praise and happiness because of what God had done in their lives and yes maybe even in response to the musical stimulus that are songs of praise to Him and brings edification (which is what the bible commands).

It could be the music inspired people to praise and worship more and pray more and have faith more and be in unity more and maybe as a result God's Spirit moves as they were in "One mind and one Accord" and "gathered together in My name".

However, since WE were not there I don't think we can make a judgement as to say "Well it was not genuine praise, you all were just getting emotional and the Spirit of God was just simply not moving", don't you agree?

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Chan

This was posted by someone as the first post in another thread and was clearly meant as a testimony or praise report:

"We had a tremendous, awesome move of God in our service yesterday! The annointing and presence of God was so incredibly strong. . .people were running, shouting, jumping, getting slain. . .people that needed victory claimed it and received it, backsliders were finding their way back to an altar of prayer. . it was just AWESOME!! I know God is a prayer answering God and He meets the needs of His people, but I still get amazed when He stops by right when we need Him the most and just takes over! I had a very special need and God completely ministered to it and me yesterday. I feel so exhilerated!!!

Anyone else have great services yesterday? Any praise reports you'd like to share?"

The joy being expressed is abundantly clear and I don't want to take that away from the person who expressed it in the above-quoted post. But there are several things in the post that raise some serious red flags!

"We had a tremendous, awesome move of God in our service yesterday!" So, what was Jesus doing yesterday that He wasn't doing all the other times He's been present (which is every time even two or three gather together in His name)? This notion of an "awesome move of God" appears to be suggesting something that is out of the ordinary and I find the notion of that disturbing because God's presence among His people is not (or shouldn't be) out of the ordinary. Further, if Jesus is present whenever even two or three are gathered together in His name (as He said He would), then what is God doing - or not doing - when He isn't moving awesomely?

"The annointing and presence of God was so incredibly strong" Are there times when it is weak?

"people were running, shouting, jumping, getting slain" Not that these are PROOF of God's annointing and presence - especially since God dwells in every Christian and, thus, does not cease to be present.

"people that needed victory claimed it and received it, backsliders were finding their way back to an altar of prayer" Isn't this what's supposed to be happening all the time? What is wrong in the Church today that we consider such things to be out of the ordinary?

"it was just AWESOME!!" Characterized by awe? Characterized by (reverential) fear? I sincerely doubt it since there was all that running, shouting, jumping, etc. going on. Now Isaiah knew what awesome was (see Isaiah 6)!

"I know God is a prayer answering God and He meets the needs of His people" Absolutely!

"but I still get amazed when He stops by right when we need Him the most and just takes over!" Stops right by? We make it sound as if God is not continually present within His people, as if God just drops in for a visit every once in a while when we "need Him" (as if to say there are times when we don't need Him. As for all that "running, shouting, jumping, getting slain," something sure took over but it wasn't God.

"I had a very special need and God completely ministered to it and me yesterday." Praise God! It's too bad we make it seem as if it's all about us and that God is there for us instead of us being there for Him - as if our needs are "very special" and the needs of others aren't.

"I feel so exhilerated!!!" That's nice but God's work in the life He has given me isn't dependent how I feel.

Well Chan,I guess you have never been around when God moved.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Paul was refering to the operation of the gifts of the Spirit and prophets speaking out of turn etc etc....otherwise what is decent and orderly as far as a praise portion of a service is as you said subjective.

Hi Prax,I'm finding out real fast there is a few lose cannons here.I guess some never have and probibly never will experance the purifying power of God.They call it all emotions.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Nope, that is not what he said. When I read it, it neither speculated that the things itself were a move of God or specifically that they were evidence of a move of God. But from everything he said, like backsliders praying through I gathered what he meant was this was the result of a move of God.

READ THE WORDS! "We had a tremendous, awesome move of God in our service yesterday! The annointing and presence of God was so incredibly strong. . .people were running, shouting, jumping, getting slain. . .people that needed victory claimed it and received it, backsliders were finding their way back to an altar of prayer. . it was just AWESOME!!" There is nothing in this that says these things he described were THE RESULT of the "awesome move of God." The words he used, and the exact order in which he used them, shows he was saying those things he listed WERE the move of God (the "move" being the "anointing and presence of God" that "was so incredibly strong").

Well I agree this needs to be more common, but if that is the case why "poopoo" this happening and not rather encourage it to happen more?

Who was doing that? The original poster testified about it in such a way as to suggest it was out of the ordinary and I was questioning why it is out of the ordinary.

He said backsliders were finding an alter again and that people were believing God for "victory" and were getting it (I can't remember what word he said) and he attributed that to "we have a move of God"....

Well, it was more likely they were finding the altar but hopefully they were covenanting with God to alter their backslidden lives. And, yes, he was saying this was part of the move itself.

As for your last statement....backsliders repenting and people believing God for some sort of victory and receiving it....why can't that be attributed to a move of God's Spirit? The Spirit brought conviction to those backsliders and maybe even a fearfulness or reverence so that they knew they were wrong and needed to get right?

You're not getting it! He didn't merely attribute it to the move of God (my previous use of "attribute" was wrong), he said this was part of the move itself. What these people were REALLY doing was THEIR REACTION, THEIR RESPONSE.

And the Spirit of God gave faith...maybe the gift of faith was in operation (a Gift of the Spirit) and because of that members were able to believe more than before and receive things they had needed.

But, again, this is not the "move" itself.

And can the move of God's Spirit bring Joy and fill one's heart with rejoicing? Might that result in people shouting, dancing...leaping etc etc?..

You still haven't shown that God does "move" in the Church.

Maybe this person was saying "Wow...we had such a move of God (Note the order). People were restored to their relationship with God (backsliders)...people were able to believe God for things they had not before, people were rejoicing with shouts of praise, praying, crying, jumping, dancing etc etc"

Again, saying that all those things WERE the move itself or the evidence of the move.

That last part does not necessarily prove God was moving, however it's also not necessarily an isolated action that happens without the move of God either. You'd have to be there to know whether it was just a happy service where the saints endulged in praise and happiness because of what God had done in their lives and yes maybe even in response to the musical stimulus that are songs of praise to Him and brings edification (which is what the bible commands).

There's a difference between what God does and what we do. As for musical "stimulus," this is what I was referring to, this notion of using music or preaching to manufacture a particular emotional response and then claiming it was God moving.

It could be the music inspired people to praise and worship more and pray more and have faith more and be in unity more and maybe as a result God's Spirit moves as they were in "One mind and one Accord" and "gathered together in My name".

Not inspired. Induced or manufactured a particular response as so often happens in Pentecostal churches. You cannot deny that musical and preaching style, volume, etc. are used to INDUCE a certain emotional response.

However, since WE were not there I don't think we can make a judgement as to say "Well it was not genuine praise, you all were just getting emotional and the Spirit of God was just simply not moving", don't you agree?

We can make a judgment based on what someone who was there reported and how he reported it. You still haven't shown that God actually "moves" in a service or that there are times when, somehow, God is not there and has to be induced to "drop by" as it were.

Originally Posted by Joelel

Well Chan,I guess you have never been around when God moved.

Show me where the Bible says that God "MOVES" in the Church.