Disfellowshipping because of Sin: When, if ever?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by COOPER

Did the early church members council the Pastors and elders the way church members do today?

I think they exerted more faith and deliverance, personally. They had POWER. Today, counsel replaces gifts of the Spirit! They actually cast out devils back then! (SHOCKING!) lol

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes. I think we are more patient with some strugglers than others. It is naturally easier to tolerate in patience one who struggles with porn, etc., than it is to tolerate one who struggles with homosexuality. Homosexuality is much more repulsive in our hearts.

However, the term STRUGGLE shows the person is not refusing to repent. They want to cease the sin. The person who sees no wrong in it and refuses to repent is "out".

I agree that the word struggle is different. But is ranking of sin is this manner fair or even biblical?

Are both of these sin not what Paul refered to in 1 Corinthians 5?

a. The term sexually immoral is the ancient Greek word porneia; it broadly refers to all types of sexual activity outside of marriage (including homosexuality).


i. Originally, porneia just referred to going to prostitutes; but before New Testament times, the Jewish community used the word to refer to any kind of extramarital sex, including homosexuality. This is its sense in the New Testament.

ii. Commentators on the word porneia: “the Scripture by this word comprehends all species of unlawful mixtures.” (Poole) “must be understood in its utmost latitude of meaning, as implying all kinds of impurity.” (Clarke)

iii. Porneia so often appears first in New Testament “sin lists” but not because the first Christians had a lot of “hang ups” about sex. Instead, it is because the area of sex was one of the most dramatic places where the ethics of Greek culture clashed with the ethics of Jesus. Sexual immorality was an accepted fact of life for the common person in Greek culture, but it was not to be so among the followers of Jesus.

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4605.htm

Didn't Jesus say that if we lust w/ our eyes it is the same as doing the act?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I agree that the word struggle is different. But is ranking of sin is this manner fair or even biblical?

Are both of these sin not what Paul refered to in 1 Corinthians 5?

a. The term sexually immoral is the ancient Greek word porneia; it broadly refers to all types of sexual activity outside of marriage (including homosexuality).


i. Originally, porneia just referred to going to prostitutes; but before New Testament times, the Jewish community used the word to refer to any kind of extramarital sex, including homosexuality. This is its sense in the New Testament.

ii. Commentators on the word porneia: “the Scripture by this word comprehends all species of unlawful mixtures.” (Poole) “must be understood in its utmost latitude of meaning, as implying all kinds of impurity.” (Clarke)

iii. Porneia so often appears first in New Testament “sin lists” but not because the first Christians had a lot of “hang ups” about sex. Instead, it is because the area of sex was one of the most dramatic places where the ethics of Greek culture clashed with the ethics of Jesus. Sexual immorality was an accepted fact of life for the common person in Greek culture, but it was not to be so among the followers of Jesus.

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4605.htm

Didn't Jesus say that if we lust w/ our eyes it is the same as doing the act?

I agree with all you said above.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I think too, the consideration has to involve whether or not the sin is private and personal, or something that is being brought to others in the church.

it is one thing to have a man who comes to a pastor and reveals a struggle with pornography.

it is entirely different when you have someone who is shaing porn with others in the church.

the warning in scripture is not to avoid those struggling. but to avoid those who would ensnare.

Very good point ....

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think they exerted more faith and deliverance, personally. They had POWER. Today, counsel replaces gifts of the Spirit! They actually cast out devils back then! (SHOCKING!) lol

Yes, in today's world it seems unpopular to even recognize that the devil might have a hand in something, or that he might be influencing a person into wrong doing.

If you mention an "evil spirit", folks often look at you like you've grown two heads.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Yes, in today's world it seems unpopular to even recognize that the devil might have a hand in something, or that he might be influencing a person into wrong doing.

If you mention an "evil spirit", folks often look at you like you've grown two heads.

Right. It's the CENSORED fourth of Christ's entire ministry.

[SDG]

Elder Blume and others, How well are we as an Apostolic Church dealing w/ those that are struggling w/ various hangups? What can we do better?

[mfblume]

Bro., we can do A LOT better. Some churches are doing great jobs with it, while others do nothing.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bro., we can do A LOT better. Some churches are doing great jobs with it, while others do nothing.

There is a pervasive Pentecostal doctrine called PRAYING THROUGH ... some believe that the person needs to have a good praying through ... with a demostrative show at the altar and BAM! ... instant fix!!!!

I'm not saying God can't do things instantaneously ... my dad was instantly delivered from heroin addiction when he came to Christ ... but we'd have to admit ... many don't have this experience w/ their compulsions, addictions ... hangups.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

There is a pervasive Pentecosta doctrine called PRAYING THROUGH ... some believe that the person needs to have a good praying through ... with a demostrative show at the altar and BAM! ... instant fix!!!!

I'm not saying God can't do thing instantaneously ... my dad was instantly delivered from heroin addiction when he came to Christ ... but we'd have to admit ... many don't have this experience.

Exactly. Counsel is required. I really see need for more gifting operated in the church. Discernment of Spirits, for example, does not discount counseling, though. It is very helpful in counseling!

But there is always more need for believers to simply have more loving patience.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 KJV And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, (25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Many cannot patiently work with people, and have to cast away the above passage of Scripture. I am sure there were cases where patient, continued work with believers in the early church occurred, as well.

If there was no need for patience in working with people, and all was an instant whammo!, Romans 6 through 8 would never have been written. But that passage deals with coming to UNDERSTAND things about our salvation so that sin does not rule in our mortal bodies. THAT TAKES TIME. People have lived for God today for decades, and cannot understand those issues!