Family Structure

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Sounds like your BIL has a lot going for him. Thank you for sharing this insight.

Blessings, Rhoni

Another insight...

I re-read your article and it brought to mind something I witnessed for myself several years ago.

An area pastor has set himself up as the supreme authority over the people in his congregation. They had to ask his permission and advice for things like... applying for a specific job, purchasing a new home, going on vacation, etc. He was extremely controlling and, as was already pointed out, his congregation was typically the less educated among us - all with hearts to serve God to the extent He was revealed to them, but never mentored and discipled on how to live for God for themselves.

A scandal rocked the church (I don't recall the specifics) and there was a split. Many families came to our congregation, which at the time was considered stable, balanced and moderate. The unfortunate result of these families coming from a strictly controlled environment to a more moderate setting was that many didn't know how to live for God. They had been taught quite well how to serve a god of fierce rules and performance-based gospel, but had no concept of how to live for the TRUE GOD without someone dictating their every move. It's very sad to say, but most of these families have fallen completely away and have been ravaged by divorce, drunkenness, addictions, immorality, etc. Perhaps it's that pendulum effect that Bro. Wasmundt talks about. I have a hunch, though, that you have hit the nail on the head. It's because this "pastor" had set himself up as the head of every family in that congregation. The fathers/husbands had no idea how to step into their God-ordained role as leaders of their families because it had been usurped (abdicated, really) for so long.

[TJJJ]

I think that the proper perspective, Biblically, would be that the husbands need to be the bishops of their own home, leading their families under the leadership of the ministry.

They and they alone are responsible for the good and the bad that happens in that home. The pastor is there to counsel, give Godly advice and to give direction for the body as a whole, knowing that the men are going to establish the direction in their individual homes.

Our pastor makes the comment that he is not there to pastor everybody in the church, except as the whole body, but he is there to pastor the men letting them lead their families. This works out very well except in the areas where men want to shirk their responsibilities.

This has Biblical precedence as in the case of Achan and his sin! That is why it is so important that men step up and take the reins.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

I think that the proper perspective, Biblically, would be that the husbands need to be the bishops of their own home, leading their families under the leadership of the ministry.

They and they alone are responsible for the good and the bad that happens in that home. The pastor is there to counsel, give Godly advice and to give direction for the body as a whole, knowing that the men are going to establish the direction in their individual homes.

Our pastor makes the comment that he is not there to pastor everybody in the church, except as the whole body, but he is there to pastor the men letting them lead their families. This works out very well except in the areas where men want to shirk their responsibilities.

This has Biblical precedence as in the case of Achan and his sin! That is why it is so important that men step up and take the reins.

I Timothy 3:2 gives the responsibilities of the office of Pastor/Bishop and one of them is not to "counsel". There is a big difference between Pastor Counseling on spiritual precepts but it is different to actually counsel as most believe it to be; i.e., that the Pastor listens to the problem and tells them what to do [the husband]. A true "counselor" will help them explore their options and let them make the decision and accept responsibility for their decision.

Counselors empower individuals to make their own decisions based on facts and not irrational beliefs or over-spiritualizing matters.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by jaamez

Another insight...

I re-read your article and it brought to mind something I witnessed for myself several years ago.

An area pastor has set himself up as the supreme authority over the people in his congregation. They had to ask his permission and advice for things like... applying for a specific job, purchasing a new home, going on vacation, etc. He was extremely controlling and, as was already pointed out, his congregation was typically the less educated among us - all with hearts to serve God to the extent He was revealed to them, but never mentored and discipled on how to live for God for themselves.

A scandal rocked the church (I don't recall the specifics) and there was a split. Many families came to our congregation, which at the time was considered stable, balanced and moderate. The unfortunate result of these families coming from a strictly controlled environment to a more moderate setting was that many didn't know how to live for God. They had been taught quite well how to serve a god of fierce rules and performance-based gospel, but had no concept of how to live for the TRUE GOD without someone dictating their every move. It's very sad to say, but most of these families have fallen completely away and have been ravaged by divorce, drunkenness, addictions, immorality, etc. Perhaps it's that pendulum effect that Bro. Wasmundt talks about. I have a hunch, though, that you have hit the nail on the head. It's because this "pastor" had set himself up as the head of every family in that congregation. The fathers/husbands had no idea how to step into their God-ordained role as leaders of their families because it had been usurped (abdicated, really) for so long.

Absolutely right!!! This is where true education and counseling comes into effect. Saints need to be taught more from the pulpit and less one on one manipulating and controling families to suit their own purposes.

Even the best of counselors are taught how to recognize their biases and refer clients to others that they cannot counsel due to counter transference. Some Pastors will say they have the best interest of the familiy in mind but it isn't possible for them to separate the needs of the church from the needs of the family - especially when it affects the running of the church.

Blessing Rhoni

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

I Timothy 3:2 gives the responsibilities of the office of Pastor/Bishop and one of them is not to "counsel". There is a big difference between Pastor Counseling on spiritual precepts but it is different to actually counsel as most believe it to be; i.e., that the Pastor listens to the problem and tells them what to do [the husband]. A true "counselor" will help them explore their options and let them make the decision and accept responsibility for their decision.

Counselors empower individuals to make their own decisions based on facts and not irrational beliefs or over-spiritualizing matters.

Blessings, Rhoni

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Rhoni, you take one verse and make a doctrine that a pastor is only limited to be hospitable and able to teach?

What about:

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

or

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I guess that counsel would fit in this somewhere!

[commonsense]

Over 20 yrs ago briefly attended a church in another city and state. They had a communion service and I was surprised by his "delivery". Each family went forward as a group, then the father was given the communion "bread and wine" (truly I don't recall if it was wine or grape juice....)
Each father administered communion to his family.

For singles, and others without a family as such, the pastor or asst pastor gave communion for that circle of believers.

I just found it interesting to see this use of the father as the priest of his family.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Rhoni, you take one verse and make a doctrine that a pastor is only limited to be hospitable and able to teach?

What about:

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

or

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I guess that counsel would fit in this somewhere!

TJ,

I think you misunderstood. I do not make a doctrine...I am stating what the qualifications for a Bishop are and counsleing is not in there. The Bible talks about adding to as well as taking away from the word as written.

The description of what I compared Pastoral counseling to and secular counseling to are as scriptures are written. The reproof, instruction in righteousness, and doctrine are things to do primarily in a group of believers. That is why it is so important for Pastors to be "Teachers". If they cannot teach then they may indeed fall into another category; i.e., evangelist, prophet, ect.

I am sorry that you and I disagree on the subject but no where in the scriptures you quoted gives the Pastor qualification to "counsel". Your interpretation means you think it is implied. We can agree to disagree.

There are some Pastors who are equipped and trained to counsel and others shoot in the dark and do more damage than good.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by commonsense

Over 20 yrs ago briefly attended a church in another city and state. They had a communion service and I was surprised by his "delivery". Each family went forward as a group, then the father was given the communion "bread and wine" (truly I don't recall if it was wine or grape juice....)
Each father administered communion to his family.

For singles, and others without a family as such, the pastor or asst pastor gave communion for that circle of believers.

I just found it interesting to see this use of the father as the priest of his family.

Dear Commonsense,

I have seen this used but I do think many times the scriptures are used and applied in a way God did not intend. The misuse of the terms "spiritual head", "submission" are commonly used to give authoritarian men the justification they are looking for to be abusive to their wives and children.

Blessings, Rhoni

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

TJ,

I think you misunderstood. I do not make a doctrine...I am stating what the qualifications for a Bishop are and counsleing is not in there. The Bible talks about adding to as well as taking away from the word as written.

The description of what I compared Pastoral counseling to and secular counseling to are as scriptures are written. The reproof, instruction in righteousness, and doctrine are things to do primarily in a group of believers. That is why it is so important for Pastors to be "Teachers". If they cannot teach then they may indeed fall into another category; i.e., evangelist, prophet, ect.

I am sorry that you and I disagree on the subject but no where in the scriptures you quoted gives the Pastor qualification to "counsel". Your interpretation means you think it is implied. We can agree to disagree.

There are some Pastors who are equipped and trained to counsel and others shoot in the dark and do more damage than good.

Blessings, Rhoni

Sigh and Alas Rhoni

I humbly acknowledge that you have the right to be wrong!



More Blessings, TJJJ

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Sigh and Alas Rhoni

I humbly acknowledge that you have the right to be wrong!



More Blessings, TJJJ

LOL. That was good

The older I become the more I realize I don't know even what I thought I knew I am wrong more times than I'd like to confess to.

*hugs* Rhoni