I believe in once saved, always saved! - Page 4

augustianian · #31 01-12-2008, 01:01 PM

Scott Hutchinson,

A few questions,

Romans 8:28-30,

Who does the choosing in these verses??

Quote:

Man can reject the grace of God,or submit to it.
If God in His soverignity doesn't send His Spirit to draw one to Himself,they can't come to God.

John 6:37, those who are given...will they refuse to come??

Quote:

God's will is for all to come to repentance,but yet God knows the end from the beginning or the beginning from the end.

II Peter 3:9, Is the "anyone" and "everyone" the same "you" with which God is patient with or are they the "scoffers" and those who "follow their own evil desires"??? If it's everyone, including those in verse 3-7, then what's the purpose of Peter making a distinction between the "you" in verse 9 and the "them" in verses 3-7?? Wouldn't God be showing patience with both categories if Peter's meaning in verse 9 was that God's will is for everyone (in the whole world) to come to repentance?? Isn't the better interpretation that the "anyone" and "everyone" in the last two clauses the "you" in the second??

Quote:

If Grace is not soverign,then it's not Grace at all.

I agree with this...but if grace is not irresistible then it has no power, therefore it is not sovereign.

a

crakjak · #32 01-12-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustianian

Me thinks that you don't want to go into this in any depth. That's fine. I will ask this though....

Which one was His child, Esau or Jacob??

God bless,
a

Are you a disciple? According to Luke 14:26?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

StillStanding · #33 01-12-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

You won't be saved from bumping into people who you do not like here on earth.

I think there will be a degree of punishment laid out to the saints.

You will have to spend the first 10 thousand years with so and so from this forum going round and round about......

A few thousand years of punishment never hurt anybody!

augustianian · #34 01-12-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

Are you a disciple? According to Luke 14:26?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Since He was using hyperbole, yes Im a disciple according to Luke 14:26.

What's your point??

a

Revelationist · #35 01-12-2008, 08:30 PM

Even my cow doesn't believe, once in grass, always in grass...

crakjak · #36 01-13-2008, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustianian

Since He was using hyperbole, yes Im a disciple according to Luke 14:26.

What's your point??

a

If you can hate father, mother, wife, children, brother and sister without really "hating" them. I think God can "hate" Esau without really hating him.

Both are analogies, hope you get the point, hyperbole in both cases.

augustianian · #37 01-13-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you can hate father, mother, wife, children, brother and sister without really "hating" them. I think God can "hate" Esau without really hating him.

Both are analogies, hope you get the point, hyperbole in both cases.

Hyperbole and analogy are two different things...so to call them both an analogy and a hyperbole is not warranted.

Anyway, what in the text gives you the idea that Paul is using hyperbole, other than the fact that you don't like a God that would hate, really hate, anybody??

Is Paul using hyperbole when he says that God loves Jacob??

Does God "love" Jacob without really "loving" him??

When does the hyperbole begin and end with you??

Maybe Paul is using hyperbole on both occasions...God doesn't really "hate" Esau and He doesn't really "love" Jacob. Maybe He's just indifferent to both of them, which means if you run Paul's argument to it's logical end, using hyperbole, God chooses based on His indifference which makes Him arbitrary. God has no purpose in election. Since now He's arbitrary, how can it be said that He hates evil?? Does He??

See my point??

a

crakjak · #38 01-13-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by augustianian

Hyperbole and analogy are two different things...so to call them both an analogy and a hyperbole is not warranted.

Anyway, what in the text gives you the idea that Paul is using hyperbole, other than the fact that you don't like a God that would hate, really hate, anybody??

Is Paul using hyperbole when he says that God loves Jacob??

Does God "love" Jacob without really "loving" him??

When does the hyperbole begin and end with you??

Maybe Paul is using hyperbole on both occasions...God doesn't really "hate" Esau and He doesn't really "love" Jacob. Maybe He's just indifferent to both of them, which means if you run Paul's argument to it's logical end, using hyperbole, God chooses based on His indifference which makes Him arbitrary. God has no purpose in election. Since now He's arbitrary, how can it be said that He hates evil?? Does He??

See my point??

a

Noticed you didn't touch my point, the comparison of the two scriptures. The hyperbole or analogy aside, the use of the word hate is a figure of speech.

augustianian · #39 01-13-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

Noticed you didn't touch my point, the comparison of the two scriptures. The hyperbole or analogy aside, the use of the word hate is a figure of speech.

i don't just try to answer a question, I try to prove my answer (It drives me up the wall when some just make statements without ever intending to prove it). I regret that I didn't make myself clear to you but I just assumed that you would be able to see that I rejected your contention that Paul was using hyperbole. And if I disagreed with you then naturally Paul, I believe, was really saying God hated Esau.

So I don't see any reason for juxtaposing what Paul said and the verse you quoted.

Its irrelevant for a multitude of reasons.

I hope that is considered me touching your point.

Its invalid.

a

Scott Hutchinson · #40 01-13-2008, 09:52 PM

My friend,augustian God certainly does the foreknowing in ROM.8:29.
I have and read a book by RC.Sproul on reformed theology which does have some valid points in it.In the book of Galatians Paul writes and mentions being fallen from grace,now how can someone fall from grace,if they never abided in grace ? SEE GAL.5:4
I believe in elective grace ,but I also believe in free-will both are taught in the Bible.
Calvinism and Areminianism both take truths to an extreme.