Billy Graham

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It should trouble you. It should trouble everyone who has found the Truth of the Kingdom. Yet, that troubling thought should compel us to preach and teach the fullness of Christ’s Kingdom. Not to create off ramps from the broadway to the narrow way. It is sad to see a Billy Graham preach unto others then himself become a cast away.

I agree.

This isn't an off ramp. It is simply allowing God to be the judge of "Christians" who haven't experienced the fullness of NT Acts 2:38. There is no assurance that Graham will be saved.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Originally Posted by Aquila View Post


In a way this is hilarious. PRETERISTS fighting it out who gets to go to Heaven! Paul seemed to consider PRETERISM as something that OVERTHREW the faith of some.

2 Tim. 2:16-17

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I would say if PRETS will be in Heaven there is a chance Billy will be there.

That's what I'm saying, one man's sacrament is another man's heresy.

For example, you believe in soul sleep and Annihilationism. I believe those teachings are error. However, I would never stand in the wake of your death condemning you to Hell, because you profess Christ as I do. And I pray that you would do the same in the wake of my demise. However, some here apparently humor our existence on this forum, assured that we're nothing but firewood. I think that's the wrong attitude and it does more to contribute to the disunity of the body than even our different interpretations.

When dealing with those who profess faith in Christ, whose beliefs aren't exactly like our own, it's best to allow God to be the judge. It's just the appropriate thing to do.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by consapente89

Sorry but this is not true. "As old as Pentecost itself" refers to that which was preached at the birth of the church. I'm not sure which movement you are part of, but the Founders of the movement that I am a part of were Jesus Christ himself and the original 12. Their persuasion was as follows:

• Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  
• But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. <meaning eternally damned
  
• But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

What movement, may I ask are you apart of? Who were its founders?

I'm referring to the beginning of the 20th Century Pentecostal Movement.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by consapente89

If by founders you mean men such as G.T. Haywood, Andrew Urshan, R.E. McAlister, Frank Ewart, Glen Cook, Howard Goss or men such as them, then doubtless they were good men and used for advancing the cause of the Gospel. None of them, however, founded the church or began the movement I am a part of, even though I am grateful for their stand for the Gospel. Furthermore, if any of them believed in an alternative to Acts 2:38 or that there was ANY HOPE of an eternity other than damnation outside of the Apostolic Pattern, then they simply were wrong.

You see, in my position it is okay to believe that they were wrong. In fact, I'd probably argue that they were wrong on a number of things. However, I believe in taking a step back and allow God to be the judge of their eternity. And that was their position too, especially when dealing with those Christians who do not follow us.

You see, we often make these judgments... but we don't know every moment of the lives of such sincere Christians. We know that many historic Christians were baptized, and while baptized in some crazy formula, they, themselves, were crying out to Christ for salvation. We also know from the study of history that many of these individuals had moments of weeping in prayer, weeping unintelligible utterances, in sobbing tears (the baptism of the Holy Ghost). Who is to say that God will not accept such, having mercy on their misunderstandings?

I just back up and give it to God.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by consapente89

What movement, may I ask are you apart of? Who were its founders?

Brother Chris has a Quaker/Apostolic background, so I guess we can say he is a Quakostolic.

(teasing)

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Originally Posted by Aquila View Post


In a way this is hilarious. PRETERISTS fighting it out who gets to go to Heaven! Paul seemed to consider PRETERISM as something that OVERTHREW the faith of some.

2 Tim. 2:16-17

16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I would say if PRETS will be in Heaven there is a chance Billy will be there.

oh dear, the gloves are off now . . .

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Taught by most of our founders?
My great-grandfather was one of the first to accept the message in the midwest and neither he, nor my grandfather believed (or preached) that there was any other way to be saved.
So, I would disagree with your perspective.

You're free too. However, I have many different books written by these men and they often talk about Christians who do not have the light we have. They don't affirm the salvation of these Christians, nor do they deny their salvation. They leave it in the hands of God to decide.

Please understand, I'm not saying that anyone has any assurance or certainty of salvation outside of Acts 2:38. I'm not saying that there is an "exit ramp" that one can take and be sure of salvation outside of Acts 2:38. What I'm saying is that faithful men and women who have believed on Christ, I believe, should be commended to Him so that He might determine what is best to do with their eternal soul.

Here's another point... if many of the founders of 20th Century Pentecost could be mistaken on various points... so can we. We are often far too arrogant, assuming that our interpretation is infallible. That is a grave mistake to make. Because while Scripture is infallible, our interpretations of it are not. We are but men. I have no problem with saying that based on my understanding of Acts 2:38 salvation, Christians who never experienced it are lost. What I have issue with is an arrogance that doesn't own up to what it believes about the Scripture. Instead, they blame it all on God, "Well, the Bible says...." No. I don't believe they should be let off so easily. They should be telling the truth by saying, "What I understand regarding the Bible..."

We've become frozen in time, worshipping our interpretations, and patting ourselves on the back. We've condemned all comers instead of seeing ourselves as the Revival that has been longed for since the Dark Ages. We are the end result of the Reformation. If we aren't, why do we cling to the Solas of the Reformers? Why do we even turn to commentaries of men we believe were in darkness? Why do we even use the Bible that has been translated by them??? We stand on the shoulders of giants who longed for the fullness of truth that we have... and all we do is spit in their eyes and condemn them like sottish children.

At least the JWs, who disavow every Christian other than their movement, had the guts to produce their own translation of Scripture, correcting what they believed to be errors contrary to what they firmly believe is truth. The very Bible we use is a product of Trinitarian scribes who often risked their lives to protect it and translated it. Some would say, "Who cares?!" Well, Jesus tells us that no man offering a cup of water in His name would be denied his reward. Imagine the grace that could be employed on behalf of a soul who protects, translates, and defends the very Word of God... though their understanding isn't perfect.

There is also the fact that the measure by which we judge is the measure we must meet. If we demand absolute doctrinal purity, allowing for no misunderstanding, or room for growth, we ensure that God will judge us the same way. I fear that those who are so quick to demand absolute doctrinal purity will one day find that they weren't as enlightened on all fronts as they assumed they were. And they will be judged by the very measure of absolute doctrinal purity.

Many will criticize me. But I'm still a work in progress. When I left Futurism to embrace Preterism I realized... the more I learn, the LESS I seem to know. I'd rather stand before God and be judged for being more merciful than what was called for, than be judged for not being merciful enough.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Brother Chris has a Quaker/Apostolic background, so I guess we can say he is a Quakostolic.

(teasing)

LOL!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

However, I have many different books written by these men and they often talk about Christians who do not have the light we have. They don't affirm the salvation of these Christians, nor do they deny their salvation. They leave it in the hands of God to decide.

What are the titles of these books? I'd like to check them out.

[Aquila]

Imagine a school yard with every child pointing a finger screaming at every other child that they are wrong.

Real mature isn't it?

That's what we do spiritually.

I'm saying, when it comes to those who profess faith in the name of Jesus, just give the judgment to God.

It pains me that some don't want to relinquish the right to judge to the only one truly worthy. It is almost as though if they cease to cast their judgments... they're afraid their "God" will topple and their beliefs be compromised. God will judge as He sees fit, regardless of our interpretations and thoughts regarding how He should judge. Therefore, commending a soul to God and allowing Him to be the final arbitrator is actually the only true position with integrity.