The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And how will the Spirit teach us what we should do?

And how would a person know if they are on the right track or not?

Please explain.

The Holy Spirit does not teach folks?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Says who? You? See, without the Word, it's all just private opinion. In regard to parents, sure you think love for Christ motivates you to honour them. It's socially acceptable, and even dopeheads would look down on someone who failed to take care of mom and dad.

But Sabbath? That cuts into people's "me time", back yard bbq's, shopping, Friday night whatever, mowing the yard, or working an extra shift to make more money.

IF your religion of "love" allows you to dispense with one commandment, it allows you to dispense with any commandment. And for the exact same reasons.

The only standard, then, that remains, is personal opinion, subjective feeling, and local cultural peer pressure. All lumped under the category of "led by the Spirit."

I asked Sean several times about this, he apparently doesn't know how to explain being "led by the Spirit." Every cult under the sun claims to be led by the Spirit. So, how does one determine where the Spirit is leading?

Apart from the Word, there is no way to know.

You asked me how to be led by the spirit?

[Sean]

I thought you knew?

[Sean]

Anyway, pray without ceasing.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Sean

I thought you knew?

I do. But apparently you either do not know, or do not want to answer the questions. Which is fine with me.

[Raffi]

It is humorous to me that as I read this thread, Aquilla and I are doing the age-old "Pauline-Jamesian Dance".

We are saying much the same thing, advancing our particular angle around a common core, but differ on some important elements of application. Neither of us deny the reality of Law, but Aquilla sees it as limited to a spiritual dimension ONLY, whereas I see The Law as originating in spirit but manifesting also as a tangible thing fundamentally expressed in The Written Bible. I see my view as "holistic", with Law existing both as Mystical Principle of Truth with a simultaneous objective expression and a subjective human experience.

However, I think the biggest difference is that Aquilla argues for a "Spiritualized Law" and disagrees with my Continuationist perspective. I argue for a form of Whole-Bible Continuity and disagree with a "Spiritual-Law-ONLY" perspective.
If Aquilla continued to agree with his Principle of Spiritualized-Law, but also agreed for the continuation of a literal, tangible continuity of The Torah, we would be teaching exactly the same message. I say this because in reading Aquilla's post above, there was really very little in it I disagreed with him on, except only that he does not seem to want to allow a literal continuation of The Law to exist alongside the "Law-As-Principle" Theory. I read what he wrote, and I say, Amen, I believe that too about The Law, in It's Spiritual context. I simply further extend that belief into my conviction that The Written Bible EXPRESSES that spiritual Truth for us concerning a practical application. For me, The Bible represents the essence of the Law as a Spiritual Principle and expresses It as an Outward Truth that we, if we truly discern The Law as Spiritual Principle, nod in agreement with and say, Yes, that is true and I concur to this as the basis of my behavior. Thus, The Bible, not our personal intellect or private sense of conscience, becomes the foundational authority that informs our beliefs, our behavior, our moral ethic, our spiritual convictions, and our religious works.

As I have said in many previous posts, I agree with the "Law-As-Principle". However, I ALSO do not think that the "Law-As-Outward-Truth" is made null-and-void by the "Law-As-Principle". I have, as I've said, a HOLISTIC view of The Law, as BOTH Spiritual Truth Principle AND as literal external reality. For me, The Law as a literal external reality is manifested OUT OF The Law as Higher Spiritual Principle. This is spoken about in Jewish Circles as The Torah HaSh'mayim (The Heavenly Torah as Mystical Principle), as well as The Torah Shebikhtab (The Earthly Torah as Written Book). The Torah Shebikhtab is just the earthly reflection of The Torah that exists in The Heavenly Realm. That is what I believe.

Aquilla seems to believe the first part, that God's Law exists in a higher realm. But he doesn't want to agree that The Written Word gives earthly manifestation to that Higher Law. In Hebrew Spirituality, it is taught that without The Written Word one cannot perceive the particulars of The Heavenly Law. It is The Written Word that educates us about what is Divine Truth here in this world of material things. Therefore, the wisest among us are those of us who "Fear God" and who study His Written Word, so as to understand His Divine Will, in order that one may then DO IT. As an Apostolic Believer, I can fully agree with that, but I would add only that our study of His Word must also be done in tandem with the Indwelling Guidance of His Holy Ghost.

I understand what Aquilla is trying to say. And a lot of what he says is the same things I say.
But as the two of us put our views to post, it comes off sounding like the centuries-old Pauline Grace Gospel argument against the Jamesian Works Gospel argument, going 'round and 'round and 'round.

I am pretty sure Mike is probably noticing that pattern too.

Peace

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Raffi

But as the two of us put our views to post, it comes off sounding like the centuries-old Pauline Grace Gospel argument against the Jamesian Works Gospel argument, going 'round and 'round and 'round.

I am pretty sure Mike is probably noticing that pattern too.

Peace

The thing is, though, there is no "Paul vs James" unless one misunderstands either Paul, James, or both. They both taught the same Truth. And they both refuted antinomianism. Paul, however, had to deal with Judaizers, and James had to deal with Pietists, hence there is a slight difference of focus in their respective teachings.

BTW, Raffi, have you given any thought to starting a thread on the Passion timeline?

[Raffi]

Oh, I agree with you about the agreement of Paul and James. The argument between a Paulinist Theology against a Jamesian (or Yacobine) Theology is the creation of others. But when you compare some of what I have written in my posts next to what Aquilla has written in his, it is almost exactly like reading the arguments of theologians who call themselves Pauline advocates of Grace Theology debating with advocates of Holiness, or Lordship, or Hebrew Roots, or any other manifestation of what THEY call "Jamesian" Theology.

Concerning a thread about the timeline of the passion week, yes I have thought about it, and by His Will, I intend to do so for you. I have been very busy the past few days after this hurricane and also with my job, so I have found little time outside of this current thread to do anything else. I am sorry for that. I think, though, should I do it, it would be a painfully short thread, as that I don't think there would be nearly as much to discuss. And I have learned that some folks have little taste for anything that sounds like "Jewish musings" around here. Still, give me just a little time for me to get around to it and I will be more than glad to do so.

Peace

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I do. But apparently you either do not know, or do not want to answer the questions. Which is fine with me.

Pray without ceasing....thats it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Raffi

Oh, I agree with you about the agreement of Paul and James. The argument between a Paulinist Theology against a Jamesian (or Yacobine) Theology is the creation of others. But when you compare some of what I have written in my posts next to what Aquilla has written in his, it is almost exactly like reading the arguments of theologians who call themselves Pauline advocates of Grace Theology debating with advocates of Holiness, or Lordship, or Hebrew Roots, or any other manifestation of what THEY call "Jamesian" Theology.

Concerning a thread about the timeline of the passion week, yes I have thought about it, and by His Will, I intend to do so for you. I have been very busy the past few days after this hurricane and also with my job, so I have found little time outside of this current thread to do anything else. I am sorry for that. I think, though, should I do it, it would be a painfully short thread, as that I don't think there would be nearly as much to discuss. And I have learned that some folks have little taste for anything that sounds like "Jewish musings" around here. Still, give me just a little time for me to get around to it and I will be more than glad to do so.

Peace

Get the important stuff taken care of first, then when you have the time start the thread and we can study b'chavrusa.