Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Sanctuary > Deep Waters
Facebook

Notices

Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #371  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:48 PM
Steve Epley's Avatar
Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
JT, I found these on the COC forum on CARM. I think Bro Elpey has a similar list.



One will notice in the list of scholars below that there is not a single one that is listed as a member of the church of Christ:

Professor Tyler (Amherst College, Mass.), said, “I shall translate 1. Acts 2:38 liberally, thus: ‘Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in (or on) the name of Jesus Christ unto remission of sins.’ The preposition eis seems to denote the object and end of the two verbs which precede in the imperative. In other words, REMISSION OF SINS IS THE OBJECT AND END RESULT of repentance and baptism.”

Professor H.C. Cameron (Princeton College, NJ) said, “The preposition eis in Acts 2:38 is evidently used in its final sense; and the phrase is clearly connected with metanoeesate kai baptistheeti (repent and be baptized), AS THE END TO WHICH REPENTANCE AND BAPTISM IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST LED.”

Professor Packard (Yale College, Conn.) said, “My own impression (to give it for what it is worth) is that I should translate it, if these words occurred in Plato, for instance, TO THE END OF REMISSION OF SINS. It would then make aphesis hamartioon AN OBJECT AIMED AT, OR A RESULT ATTAINED BY THE ACTS DENOTED BY THE VERBS.”

Professor Foster (Colby University, Maine) said, “Without a special examination of the passage in connection with others in which like expressions occur, I should say that the word here has the force of ‘unto,’ ‘in order to,’ ‘for the sake of,’ INDICATING A RESULT TO BE ATTAINED.”

Professor D’Ooge (Ann Arbor University, Mich.) said, “In reply to your inquiry, I would say that in my judgment the preposition eis, in the verse referred to, expresses THE RELATION OF AIM OR END IN VIEW, answering the question eis ti (for what?), and to be translated by ‘unto,’ ‘in order to,’ ‘for.’ This sense of eis, as you doubtless know, is recognized by Liddell & Scott for classical; by Winder, for New Testament usage.”

Professor Flagg (Cornell University, NY) said, “In answer to your inquiry about the force of the preposition eis in the passage of the New Testament to which you refer (Acts 2:38), I should say that IT DENOTED INTENTION OR PURPOSE, ‘with a view to,’ much as if he had been written, ‘SO AS TO OBTAIN REMISSION OF SINS.’”

Professor Proctor (Dartmouth College, NH) said, “It is my opinion that eis is to be connected with both the predicates, and that IT DENOTES AN OBJECT OR END IN VIEW.”

Professor Harkness (Brown University, RI) said, “In my opinion eis in Acts 2:38 DENOTES PURPOSE, and may be rendered in order to, or FOR THE PURPOSE OF SECURING, or, as in our English version, for.”

Professor T.D. Seymour (Yale College) said, “I do not remember any passage in which eis could properly be translated because of. I am not sure that I understand your second question; as I understand it, I should say that EIS IS NEVER RETROSPECTIVE, it always implies that the person or thing or act concerned is turned toward the thing which follows eis.”

Professor W.W. Goodwin (Harvard) said, “In reply to your first question I must say that I cannot conceive of any expression in which eis would be properly translated because of. To your second question I should say that I DO NOT SEE HOW EIS CAN EVER BE RETROSPECTIVE.”

Professor John H. Wheeler (University of Virginia) said, “It seems to me in either language (Greek or English) THE REMISSION OF SINS IS SOMETHING TO WHICH THE ONE WHO IS BAPTIZED IS TO LOOK FORWARD - he is to be baptized AS A MEANS OF PROCURING THAT REMISSION.”

Professor Chas. F. Smith (Vanderbilt) said, “I do not doubt that eis in Acts 2:38 means unto and is prospective.”

In addition to all of the above, Dr.Williams, translator of The Williams Testament said eis “is always prospective.”

Still another list and not one is given as a member of the church of Christ:

The following is a list of Greek scholars (and I have no further information on these besides what I’ve included) who commented on Acts 2:38 and the meaning of baptism for (eis) the forgiveness of sins:

1. Winer, Greek scholar, Winer’s New Testament Grammar, “the purpose and end in view”

2. J.W. Willmarth (Baptist), scholar, “unto, in order to”

3. Hackett (Baptist), scholar, referring to Acts 22:16 “states a result of baptism, answers ‘for the remission of sins’ in Acts 2:38, i.e., submit to the rite in order to forgiveness”

4. Meyer “denotes object of baptism which is the remission of guilt”

5. Penick, professor of classical languages at the University of Texas, “’eis’ looks forward and I know of no case in the New Testament where it looks back”

6. C.B. Williams (Baptist) “eis is always prospective”. His translation: “that you may have your sins forgiven.”

7. J.P. Lange (Lutheran theologian) “eis shows the immediate purpose of baptism”

8. Olshausen, “baptism is accompanied with the remission of sins”

9. C.H. Morgan (Baptist), Dean of Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary “I do not know of any recognized Greek lexicon which gives to eis the meaning of ‘because of’.”

10. W.R. Harper, Professor at Chicago University, “’unto’, i.e., ‘in order to secure’”

11. Axtell (Baptist), Professor of Greek, ‘unto, for, in order to, with a view to, denotes the object or end toward which the action expressed by the predicate verbs was to be directed.”

12. S.H. Butcher (Presbyterian), Professor of Greek, “expresses the end toward which the action tends”

13. I. Bywater, Professor of Greek, “expresses the end or purpose to be attained: to the end that your sins may be remitted.”

14. H.C. Cameron, Professor of Greek, “the end to which repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ led”

15. P. Doddridge (Congregationalist), “in order to be forgiven of their sins”

16. M.L. D’Ooge (Baptist), Professor of Greek, “unto, in order to, for”

17. K. Fullerton (Presbyterian), Professor of Greek and Hebrew scriptures “into or unto, the aim or end of baptism is remission of sins”

18. G.S. Sale (Presbyterian), Professor of Greek, “result or purpose of baptism, to obtain remission of sins”

19. C.F. Sitterly (Methodist), Professor of Greek and English Bible, “reason or motive that should induce to repentance and baptism”

20. J.H. Thayer (Congregationalist), Professor of N.T. Criticism and Interpretation, author of Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, “unto the remission of your sins”

21. R. Halley (Congregationalist), Principal of New College, “future and prospective”

22. A. Harkness (Baptist), Professor of Greek, “denotes purpose, in order to, for the purpose of receiving”

23. J.C. Proctor, Professor of Greek, “denotes object or end in view”

24. W. S. Tyler, Professor of Greek, “denotes object and end of the two verbs”

I know nothing more about the above than what is given. I believe my brethren collected these lists originally from others who were NOT members of the CoC for the express purpose of ruling out bias, to show that unbiased scholars knew that eis looks forward and not back to something (as in because).
Brought to you from folks who read and speak Greek. UNLIKE DAN!
Reply With Quote
  #372  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:49 PM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Does NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!! It says REPENT ye therefore AND BE COVERTED so repentance alone is NOT CONVERSION!!! Acts 3:19 read it and weep!

When THOU art converted strenghten the brethren. Luke 22:31 had Peter repented?
and was baptized already for that matter ... one must gather ...
Reply With Quote
  #373  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:51 PM
warrior81680's Avatar
warrior81680 warrior81680 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior81680 View Post
Which verse are you referencing in Acts 4?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Acts 3:19 ... edited it...
OK, thank you. Are you then saying that repentance is the conversion, or that there is still more left to do in the conversion process?
Reply With Quote
  #374  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:51 PM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Many think their arguments are somehow VALID because a group like-minded individuals applaud them OR regurgitate the same line of logic .... or state an opinion similar to theirs ... it's an example of flawed reasoning and faulty logic which is called APPEAL TO AUTHORITY ...
  • Argumentum ad Verecundiam Translation: "Argument from respect/modesty", Latin
  • Ipse Dixit Translation: "He, himself, said it", Lati
Form:

Authority A believes that P is true.
Therefore, P is true.
Reply With Quote
  #375  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:51 PM
Steve Epley's Avatar
Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Here is Bro Elpey's list I copied to my harddrive from the GNC awhile ago.

More on “Eis” in Acts 2:38 (GNC)

Nothing in the NT speaks of the blood 'being applied" the blood was shed at Calvary and through faith in the shed blood I recieve:
1. Forgiveness of sins at repentance
2. Remission of sins at baptism
3. The life of the the Blood in th baptism of the Holy Ghost.
In the Tabernacle the "WALK" that began at the brazen altar had blood sprinkled on every piece of furniture thus in every aspect of our 'walk' the priest came in contact with that which was sanctified by the blood. So I concur with your thoughts.
Faith in his blood procurs each and every aspect of our salvation WHEN we BY faith OBEY His word.

Translations that for the word "UNTO" for the word "eis" in Acts 2:38:
Amercian Standard version
English Revised version(1881) Johnannes Lauritzen Translation
American Bible Union NT Modern King James Version (Green)
E.e. Cunnington Translation The Living Scriptures (Green)
George Swann Translation A. S. Worrell Translations
Modern Reader's Bible(Monton) Westministers(Cuthbert-Lattery)
Numeric New Testament(Panin) W. B. Godbey Translation

I found on paper the article I told you of this woman sent Acts 2:38 to these noted college professors asking them if "eis" could mean 'because of" in the passage.
Here are the replies:
1.Frederick M. Combellack, University of Oregon
"The Greek proposition "eis" is NOT used to express cause. One of it's common uses is to express purpose. That is the usage illustrated in the passage you quote from Acts 2:38. Peter means "Let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ FOR THE PRUPOSE of the remission of yours sins."
2. J.B. McDiarmid, Executive Officier, University of Washington, Department of Classics, Seattle,
"Thank you for your letter of November 4, I think that "eis" NEVER means
"because of" in the sense "as the result of." It may mean "because of" in the sense of "with a veiw to." as apparently it does in this passage. That it may express the end either literal or figurative TOWARD which the action tends. In this passage the remission of sins is the END of the act of baptism."
3. Robert B. Cross, Department of Greek and Latin, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, Ca.
"As far as I am able to determine "eis" in the New Testament at any rate can ONLY be translated by such a phrase as "for the purpose of" in order to accomplish and the like. It could be translated "because of" in the sense of "for the purpose of" or "for the cause of" -which means exactly the same thing. It could NEVER mean "because of" in the sense of "on account of."
MORE TO COME!
4. John L. Heller, Professor of the Classics, University of Illinois,"I do NOT believe that "eis" over means "because of" and certainly NOT in the passage you quote: "Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the sake of forgiveness of your sins" Here "eis" is certainly NOT causal but final, meaning "for the purpose of" in order to recieve."
5. John V. A. Fine, Department of Classics, Princeton University, Princeton NJ.
" To the best of my knowledge "eis" CANNOT mean "because of". It does not express cause but frequently expressed purpose. Acts 2:38 I shall translate(literally) as follows: "And Peter said unto them Repent and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins."
6. Warren E. Lake, Professor of Greek Language and Literature, Dept. of Greek, University of Michigan,
" The proposition "eis" can never have the force of 'because of' at any period of the langauge. Its primary meaning is ALWAYS "to" into" in the NT and Modern Greek "in". It is used in thie passage in the metaphorical sense of "limit of motion" , i.e. "be bapitized unto or with a view to" remission of sins . "This se is fairly frequent in NT particularly with the articular infinitive. Cf. Rom.3:25, Mt.20:19, Rom.1:11, 1Cor. 9:28 etc.
7. E. Bundy, Asst. Prof. of Classics, University of Berkley, Berkley, Ca.
"The preposition denotes 'purpose' "For the remittance of your sins" or with a veiw to the remitt etc. or "in order to(gain) remittance" or some such expression. Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized each of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remittance of your sins.." Eis" could ONLY be translated because of means purpose.
8. Henry B. Dewing, Bowdoin College and President of Athens College, Athens Greece,
" I should say that "eis" indicates not a result or consequence but rather END or design. I should translate "Let everyone of you baptized (the attainment of) forgiveness of sins..." The meaning 'because of" is UTTERLY OUT OF THE QUESTION.(emphasis mine) Professor of Athen's College mind you.
9. Henry Darling Brackett, Professor of Greek, Clark College
"In order to" but "for the purpose of" is better, because the fundamental universal meaning of "eis" is "toward" into" in the direction of" and NOT "out of' "arising from" or "because of".
10. Frank Hugh Foster, Instructor of New Testament Greek, Oberlin Graduate School of Theology
"The meaning of "eis" may be either of two things, either to indicate the purpose..or to indicate the result. In the first place it would be translated "in order to gain" in the second with the result of, the preposition "eis"
NEVER means because of.
11. E.A. Nida, member of Editorial board of "The Bible Translator." Vol. 3, no. 3, July 1952
"Repent and be baptized" and "sins are forgiven." Our problem at this point is to determine the relationship of these two expressions as we find it indicated in the Greek preposition "eis" usually translated "into" but having a variety of meanings including "unto" "for" "in" regards to." It is not easy to determine the precise relationships between these processes. We may regard the Greek "eis" as resultive,i.e.-the "baptism of repentance"results in forgiveness of sins. However "eis" could also designate the purpose of the baptism....In English we can use the ambiguous conjunctive phrase "so that" and translate the portion of the verse as "repent and be baptized so that their sins may be forgiven." The use of "so that...may" still leabes so ambiguity, as between purpose and result, but the principle emphasis is upon purpose.
12. Professor Flagg, Cornell University,"In respect to your inquiry about the force of the preposition "eis" in the passage of the NT to which you refer(Acts2:38), I should say that it denoted intent or purpose with a veiw to, much as if it has been written, "so as to obtain the remission of sins."

13. J. H. Huddleston, Professor of Greek, University of Maine
"Peter spoke to them "repent and let each one of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ to the end (that there may be) delivery from your sins."EIS" CANNOT mean 'because of' but as often in the NT "for the purpose of."
14. Edgar J. Goodspeed, Professor of Bibilcal & Patristic Greek, University of Chicago,
Peter said unto them you must repent and everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, in order to have your sins forgiven." it NEVER means "because of.'
15. Donald L. Wise, Moody Bible Institute,
We are inclined to agree with you that the evidence of its usage and interpetation in context indicate that the proposition(Eis in Acts 2:38) is used to indicate purpose. (From MOODY of all things!!!!!!!!!!! Their scholarship outweighed their theology.)
16. Clinton W. Keys, Assistant Professor of Greek and Latin, Columbia University, New York City,
"Change your attitudes and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the removal of your sins" "Eis" takes the accusative "aphesin." I don't see that it can mean anything but "for" "for the purpose of."
17. Canon Emile Chartier, Vuce Rector, Montreal University,
"But there is one meaning it (eis) never bears, not more in Biblical Greek than in Classical, and that is the causal(because of) He paraphrases-if you are sorry of your sins and you undergo baptism, your sins will be forgiven......"
How about it folks????????????????? Thus saith the Greek professors that speak and teach the language?
In the OT men had forgiveness of sins but sins were NEVER taken away! IN the NT remission of sins took place at Calvary through his blood. He was the Lamb that took away the sin of the world. In baptism we experience this benefit of the blood that was not available in the OT. NO sin in the NT is remitted outside of baptism ONLY in baptism is the promise that faith will remit past sins of the repented. While forgiveness and remission comes from the same word it is NOT accomplished in the same act. Forgiveness ALONE will not save in the NT church. The record has to be purged or cleared and only the blood accomplishes that in the act of baptism. Our faith in his blood frees-delivers-liberates-sends away-clears our sins in baptism in Jesus Name.
Brother Elpey
Sorry Dan these professors acutally speak and read the language and NONE of them are Pentecostal read it and weep in Greek.
Reply With Quote
  #376  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:52 PM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior81680 View Post
OK, thank you. Are you then saying that repentance is the conversion, or that there is still more left to do in the conversion process?
other translations do not use the term converted ....as found in the KJV ...

furthermore ... is he trying to be cryptic ??? When would that remission happen after step 2 ... 3 ...15 of conversion???
Reply With Quote
  #377  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:52 PM
Steve Epley's Avatar
Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
and was baptized already for that matter ... one must gather ...
Yes he was baptized so what does that prove??????????? He preached something he had not obeyed?
Reply With Quote
  #378  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:54 PM
Steve Epley's Avatar
Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,903
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Many think their arguments are somehow VALID because a group like-minded individuals applaud them OR regurgitate the same line of logic .... or state an opinion similar to theirs ... it's an example of flawed reasoning and faulty logic which is called APPEAL TO AUTHORITY ...
  • Argumentum ad Verecundiam Translation: "Argument from respect/modesty", Latin
  • Ipse Dixit Translation: "He, himself, said it", Lati
Form:

Authority A believes that P is true.
Therefore, P is true.
We are in agreement with Peter sounds like Authority to me? Better than the Baptist.
Reply With Quote
  #379  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:54 PM
warrior81680's Avatar
warrior81680 warrior81680 is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by warrior81680 View Post
OK, thank you. Are you then saying that repentance is the conversion, or that there is still more left to do in the conversion process?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
other translations do not use the term converted ....as found in the KJV ...

furthermore ... is he trying to be cryptic ??? When would that remission happen after step 2 ... 3 ...15 of conversion???
OK, so are you saying the KJV is wrong in it's translation?

Edit--Peter was never cryptic, which has to do with a hidden meaning. Peter always said it as it was.
Reply With Quote
  #380  
Old 04-26-2007, 09:54 PM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Sorry Dan these professors acutally speak and read the language and NONE of them are Pentecostal read it and weep in Greek.
More flawed reason ...as if all Pentecostals believe in the Water and Spirit doctrine ... when in reality a marginal group does.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is Acts 2:38 your god? SDG The D.A.'s Office 438 09-16-2010 07:00 PM
Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen? SDG The D.A.'s Office 353 05-30-2008 01:39 PM
book of acts revival brazil Rev. Raul Alvear Jr Missions Area 10 03-06-2007 08:11 PM
Acts 2:38 in 2007 Nahum Deep Waters 82 02-27-2007 02:17 PM
book of acts revival brazil Rev. Raul Alvear Jr Missions Area 2 02-25-2007 10:38 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by jfrog
- by Salome
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.