The UPC is a dying movement!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I would hate to see the UPC dead, I want it to simply trim the dead leaves of legalism that is not helping it grow and to see it get revitalized and growing, and spreading the Apostolic message.

amen
then that is what will happen, when you do it. of course you will have adversaries who have a different idea, and you are talking about a different tree now, so likely it will be called something else. but it already exists, you just have to go...join in.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Carl

What? wadr, lob another, who is groping the president? Of course that is a slam dunk if they are part of the NWO. Trump said he would not want to be in a foxhole with any of them, always thought there was a connection between my church and the bar codes.

lol, the candidate is the groper; and also a wholly owned subsidiary of the ones he claims to be against, of course. Remember when Trump was going down the tubes, when, in the 80's i guess, casinos bankrupt, all washed up; then he wasn't? Alla sudden he was fine, and has been since then? i even saw it on PBS; don't remember who bought his name, whoever his creditors were.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Cracker Barrel

Why have you changed? What happened to you, Brother?

how has he changed? he's still defending "Apostolic message," so he hasn't changed yet, has he? Sounds UPC to me?

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Cracker Barrel

Why have you changed? What happened to you, Brother?

I have not changed at all.
My message has been the same, you can ask anyone at AFF.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by shazeep

how has he changed? he's still defending "Apostolic message," so he hasn't changed yet, has he? Sounds UPC to me?

I have always been Apostolic, not UPC.

[votivesoul]

Even though the word "church" is in the title of the organization, can we all agree that the UPCI is not the "church" in the Biblical sense of the word?

Can we agree that whatever noble ideals and aspirations the people within the organization have, and whatever unction from God that exists on their lives, it is them, and not the organization, that is the church?

This being the case, when that Last Trump sounds, it will not be the UPCI that finds itself face to face with the Lord in the air, but rather, the saints of God who are the church who will meet Jesus.

As such, being a man-made organization, with many laws and regulations of man governing it, one being those laws and regulations that govern tax exemption status, for example, wouldn't it behoove us all to desire that the people within the organization step up and out of all that is man-made around them, that is surrounding them, and yes, even sometimes suffocating them, and get free, so they can be all that God wants them to be, without man-made limitations?

And if this be so, wouldn't the demise of the UPCI be right and just before God, so His people can be liberated from something God Himself did not create and had no part in causing?

I mean, don't we all believe that the only "organization" God cares about is the Body of Christ?

If yes, then all man-made organizational efforts are obsolete (and perhaps go against God in their establishing).

If no, then by what means or merit can we, through the lens of Scripture declare that God is involved in and cares about the UPCI, or any other ecclesiastical organization, for that matter?

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Even though the word "church" is in the title of the organization, can we all agree that the UPCI is not the "church" in the Biblical sense of the word?

Can we agree that whatever noble ideals and aspirations the people within the organization have, and whatever unction from God that exists on their lives, it is them, and not the organization, that is the church?

This being the case, when that Last Trump sounds, it will not be the UPCI that finds itself face to face with the Lord in the air, but rather, the saints of God who are the church who will meet Jesus.

Yes, of course. The UPCI is a fellowship of like-minded individuals, just as all organizations are. I doubt you'll find anyone who would argue otherwise.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

As such, being a man-made organization, with many laws and regulations of man governing it, one being those laws and regulations that govern tax exemption status, for example, wouldn't it behoove us all to desire that the people within the organization step up and out of all that is man-made around them, that is surrounding them, and yes, even sometimes suffocating them, and get free, so they can be all that God wants them to be, without man-made limitations?

If a fellowship is meant to be of those like-minded, then why would they feel "suffocated"? If they do, perhaps they should consider if they're wrong or if the organization is wrong, and act accordingly. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to be a member of the UPC.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

And if this be so, wouldn't the demise of the UPCI be right and just before God, so His people can be liberated from something God Himself did not create and had no part in causing?

So would the demise of the all other man made organizations also be right and just before God? Are you singling out the UPC, or do you think they should all be eradicated?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I mean, don't we all believe that the only "organization" God cares about is the Body of Christ?

If yes, then all man-made organizational efforts are obsolete (and perhaps go against God in their establishing).

Once again, I'd ask you to clarify if this is intended against all man made fellowships, or just the UPC? If all, then why single out the UPC by name? If just the UPC, why is it any different from the other fellowships out there?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

If no, then by what means or merit can we, through the lens of Scripture declare that God is involved in and cares about the UPCI, or any other ecclesiastical organization, for that matter?

God cares about the organizations because of the people involved in them. If the people involved are serving Him and His will, then He will prosper the fellowship those individuals belong to.

[votivesoul]

If a fellowship is meant to be of those like-minded, then why would they feel "suffocated"? If they do, perhaps they should consider if they're wrong or if the organization is wrong, and act accordingly. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to be a member of the UPC.

Suffocation can occur in any organization. No, no one is being coerced or forced to stay, but leaving over differences can create major waves that not everyone is willing to cause, for the sake of emotional health or wellbeing. For some to leave the UPCI is tantamount to being an "oath-breaker", as one licensed UPCI minister family member of mine once told me.

So, to stay for other reasons, while still pinned down by whatever man-made restrictions, can cause a feeling of suffocation. And let's face it, a person can push and try to cause change from within, but monolithic organizations are almost never receptive to that kind of activity.

So, I think the point stands.

So would the demise of the all other man made organizations also be right and just before God? Are you singling out the UPC, or do you think they should all be eradicated?

What's the end result of Armageddon? Is anything man-made going to survive?

No, I'm not singling the UPCI out for any reason other than its what this thread is about.

I think they are all going to have to go, as the Bride prepares herself.

God cares about the organizations because of the people involved in them. If the people involved are serving Him and His will, then He will prosper the fellowship those individuals belong to.

I disagree. God cares about the people involved in them, end of story. The organization can take a hike, methinks. Here's why:

As long as there is this idea that there has to be disparate organizations, the Body of Christ remains fractured. Why can't all the various Oneness Apostolic organizations merge and be of like mind about the doctrine of Christ and the rest of Holy Scripture?

The answer is simple: Because except for Acts 2:38, and maybe the Godhead, none of the organizations agree about much of anything, and would never yield those distinctives that make them the respective organizations they are.

Why did the WPF form? I mean really? Let's put aside all the banter and blather and be real for a moment. An issue came up, got pushed hard, was voted on, and was passed, and many couldn't stand for it, and left, and reformed somewhere else.

Is that God's way? Is that unity in the Body of Christ?

I mean, why did the early Apostolic movement split along racial lines? Was that from God? Why is the PAW predominantly "black", while most of the other organizations are predominantly "white"? Is God keeping these organizations apart on purpose? It is part of His plan?

Why did the UPCI have to adopt a position paper regarding race and ethnicity back in 2008? To affirm a commitment to righteousness regarding people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds? Sure, but that comes as a confession that prior to 2008, there was no official stance in the organization. That's a lot of decades from 1945.

Let's face it. All of these organizations are merely entities. They are intangible corporate "persons".

It is the people who are in them that make up the church. The XYZ organization doesn't have great preachers, the church does! The XYZ organization doesn't see great healings and miracles, the church does! The XYZ organization doesn't evangelize and win souls, the church does! The XYZ organization isn't the ground and pillar of truth, the church is!

And on and on I could go. These organizations are merely the framework through which much of the church has decided to operate. But guess what? Not a one of them is actually necessary to the success and future glory of the church.

No one in the Book of Acts needed what we have today in the form of organizations or so-called ministerial fellowships. We keep telling ourselves we're Apostolic! We're Pentecostal! All because of Acts 2:38. One single verse and we act like we're just like the first church on the day of Pentecost. Ha!

We are so far removed from the day of Pentecost church, we can't even begin to figure out how to get back to our roots. All we got is Acts 2:38, and maybe 2:4, and, if we stretch hard enough, a very watered down version of Acts 2:42, but only as cell-groups/life-groups/home fellowship-groups, or whatever non-Biblical name they're given.

I hope people can see I am not anti-church. I'm not really even anti-organization, per se.

Rather, I'm practical, pragmatic, and realistic about it all. 1,000 years from now, wherever the church is, whatever the church is, no one is going to care about Hazelwood, MO, or what have you.

Since only members of the Body of Christ (and not man-made apparatuses) are given eternal life, everything else is eventually going to die. It's only a matter of time. And in that regard, the UPCI IS IN FACT DYING, even as the people involved, that is, the individual members of the Body of Christ, are going to LIVE, FOREVER.

[good samaritan]

I view the upc as a fellowship, rather than an organization (if that really matters). The Pentecostal movement is relatively young in our nation compared to the other more mainstream protestant denominations (baptists, methodists,etc..). The early Pentecostal churches of the movement in our country no doubt where looking for like minded believers, and thus the birth of the Pentecostal fellowships we have. Rules and regulations are determined by the majority of the fellowship. All licensed ministers have a voice and if someone sees things going in the wrong direction they have a voice and the ability to get out.

There are thousands of people who have been saved through foreign mission and home missions (structured giving of the UPC constituency). I look forward to the day where we will all be in the unity of the faith. It would be great if there was no need of a sign on the door necessary. "Pentecostal" on the door identifies that the Holy Ghost baptism is part of that churches beliefs. Sadly, not all churches believe that.

Nothing where men are involved is perfect and people have the choice to decide for themselves. I don't think it is good to tear down others when there is too many lost souls to win. Another thread says, There is enough to preach about Jesus why should we preach on others "selves".

If the UPC bothers anyone then they should withdraw themselves, but why go to holy war against those who have not come to your same conclusions.

[shazeep]

"Thank You, God, that i am like the rest of men"

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I have always been Apostolic, not UPC.

cool!
i say that too, but i guess it depends upon who is doing the defining there, too. we...adopt these terms for ourselves, maybe without realizing they are really adopted for defining ourselves to everyone else. the Apostles were sent out with no other flag but "Good News."