The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[Raffi]

Then, concerning LOVE. It is not our responsibility to define "love". The Scripture already does that for us:
Ex. 20:6
Dt. 5:10
Dt. 6:5
Dt. 10:12-13
Dt. 11:1
Dt. 13:3
Dt. 19:9
Dt. 30:6
Dt. 30:19-20
Mrk. 12:29-30
Jn. 14:15
Jn. 14:21
Jn. 14:23
1 Jn. 2:3-5
1 Jn. 3:24
1 Jn. 5:3
2 Jn. 1:6

Every single one of the above Verses connect Love for God to obedience to His Written Word. This tells me that in some way, our obedience IS the tangible manifestation and expression of our love for Him. This, to me, is true "Love" for God. And true "Love" is the real test of one's faith. But in The Scripture, "love" is something that can be seen and demonstrated. It is "proven" by actions. In the case of the Christian life, these are actions that demonstrate hatred of what is morally wrong and reprehensible as well as willingness and joyous obedience to those things which His Divine Word has specifically enjoined upon us to do. Such as the Sabbath. True "Love" is heart-based AND pro-active.

Faith in The One True God is indeed the Way to Eternal Life, but acceptance of Him, if it is to be regarded by Him as "genuine faith" must ALWAYS result in a life of obedience to His Revealed Way. Repentance necessarily implies obedience. If we truly love Him, we will commit to Him. That is what these Passages of Scripture are telling us. That is not some man-made doctrine, that is what God Himself teaches us through these Passages. Love and Obedience go together: Dt. 30:19-20

Isaiah 35:8
Matthew 7:21-23
Luke 6:46
John 14:23-24

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So then, we don't have to honour Mom and Dad, either.

Dishonoring parent's doesn't demonstrate the love of Christ. Christ's Spirit is within us. As we allow Him to live His life and love out through us, we will not only fulfill the law, but we will go beyond it.

[Raffi]

And finally, I would like just to point out one more thing here about the way I understand this matter. As I see it, The Sacred Scripture draws a clear contrast between a dead, useless faith which cannot save, and an active, working faith which is pleasing to God. Every example of conversion in The Bible shows that people were Saved only when their faith issued in the works of submissive obedience to God's Word. Their Faith had to match God's requirements.

James 2:18

This principle of "faith manifested in obedience" is abundantly illustrated in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. In this chapter the inspired writer describes numerous cases of people who were met God in "FAITH". In every single case their "faith" was a "faith manifested by works" -- conviction couples with obedience to God's Word.

What this says to me is that the writer of Hebrews saw The Old Testament as a purview of how we in The New Testament Age are to understand the relationship between faith and obedience. As I can tell, not only The Gospels, but also Hebrews, James, and John all agree with Deuteronomy that Bible Faith is a Commandment-keeping Faith that teaches the Doctrine of Obedience -- that we must not only believe in the Testimony of Messiah, but must also obey the requirements of His Commandments.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that DOETH the Will of my Father which is in Heaven." -- Mat. 7:21

"And we are his witnesses of these things, and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY HIM." --Acts 5:32

". . . [God] is no respector of persons: But in every Nation he that feareth Him, AND WORKETH RIGHTEOUSNESS, is accepted with Him." -- Acts 10:34-35

"Ye are my friends, IF YE DO whatsoever I command you." -- Jn. 15:14

"Seeing ye have purified your souls IN OBEYING THE TRUTH through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren . . ." -- 1 Pet. 1:22

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto ALL THEM THAT OBEY HIM." -- Heb.5:9

"For this is the love of [God], THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and His Commandments are not grievous." -- 1 Jn. 5:3

To me, these Passages, and there are many more in addition to these, speak to me that in God's Eyes, New Testament Christianity really is a Commandment-keeping faith in full continuity with that Faith revealed to Abraham (Gen 26:5), and delivered on stone and parchment to Moses from Sinai. I see CONTINUITY here. An unbroken chain of Truth that is consistent. I do not see it as a bad thing that His People should also keep His Commandments. And of all the Commandments of Scripture, none is sweeter to the soul that His wonderful Sabbath.

I do not discount the spiritual and "in-principle" reality of His Sabbath, but where I differ is that I do not see that the spiritual and "in-principle" aspect nullifies the literal aspect of obedience. But for me, obedience is sweet. It is a pleasure. It is a joy. That is true of His Sabbath, and it is true for ALL of the Commandments He has given to us. I don't see it as, Oh man, I HAVE to keep Commandments. I see it more as, Wow, he has extended to me the privilege of keeping these marvelous Commandments. I keep them in spirit, AND I keep them in deed. For me, obeying His Sabbath and His Commandments in a literal, tangible way does NOT conflict with the Grace element and spiritual truth that these things point to. And I guess, that is the major difference between how I see this from the way many of you see it.

I do not condemn. I do not want to be the one guilty of labeling other Believers as false-believers. That is not my job. It will be up to God to make those decisions. He has given us His Word as a guide, and as far as I am concerned, we are to use that Word as a measure of ourselves, not as a weapon to wound and slay Brothers and Sisters. Love you all.

Peace.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by peter83

Very smart!����
So we can swear too? Or is it enough to love your brother and hate your enemies? Or we can divorse?

Anything that doesn't demonstrate the love of Christ is sin, whether it is written in the Law or not. We have the Spirit of Christ within us, if we allow Christ to live His life and love out through us, we will discover a holiness that exceeds that of the Law.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Apparently, we can do whatever we want as long as we "love" everyone. And, best not try to define "love", cuz leguhlism.

That's an oversimplification. The Law will conform us into the image of ancient Israel (those to whom the Law was given). We do not model our lives after the commands of two stone tablets, or a dusty old scroll, our example and model is Jesus Himself. Therefore, all that we say, do, or think should be predicated upon Christ and acted upon through His love.

When we speak of love, we do not speak only of "phileo", or brotherly love. We do not speak of mere "storge", or familial love. Nor do we speak of only of "eros", romantic, passionate, sexual love. We speak of "agape", the love of God. It is a love that transcends and persists regardless of circumstance. It is a love born of who we are in Christ, and Christ within us, regardless of the behavior, circumstance, or words of others. For the Christian, every form of love (phileo, storge, & eros) is interwoven with agape.

Let me elaborate on "Honor thy father and mother." Let's say one dishonors, curses, slanders, or defies their parents. Is the sin their cursing, slandering, or defiance? NO. The root of the problem is... they have failed to LOVE their parents. For if they loved their parents (storge) with agape, they could do no such thing. They wouldn't even conceive of it. Therefore, the true sin isn't their cursing, slandering, or defiance to the dishonor of their parents. The true sin is... a failure to love.

Try to grasp this. One can cease from cursing, slandering, or defying their parents through will. But just because they hold their tongue and are determined to obey their parents, it doesn't mean that they love them. So, repentance from the deed done isn't really addressing the problem. We can hate our parents with a smile on our faces, and still... we are in sin.

Let's say that a man commits adultery. Is the sin his adultery? The real sin is that he ceased loving, or failed to love his wife above all others. For had he done so, he'd not even conceive of committing adultery.

They law points at actions and behaviors. But these are only the "symptoms" of sin. The deeper problem is a lack of love. True, holy, Christ-like, love.

If you find yourself tempted to bow to idols or use the name of the Lord in vain, you can repent of the action through will... but the root of the problem remains... you don't love God enough. You'll find yourself drawn back into some manifestation of that lack of love. If you find yourself dishonoring parents, stealing, murdering, lying, and coveting, you can try to use will power to cease those actions... but again, the root of the problem remains... you don't love God enough to demonstrate your love towards Him through loving others.

The secret to repentance and overcoming sin is... repenting of our lack of love and praying for a new baptism of the love of God. When we fall in love with Jesus all over again, and contemplatively seek to discover a true and abiding love of others again, we will have eliminated the very root cause of our sin.

You can't love God unless you love others. And you cannot love others properly unless you love God. This is a life of love. It's transcendent of every religion that has their little lists of do's and don'ts. It's transcendent of every form and interpretation of legalism. It is a spiritual experience and way of living. It is born of the Holy Spirit within us, and so it is supernatural. It demands infinitely MORE than the Law. It calls sin out before the action even takes place. Sin begins... in the heart. That's why any man who hates his brother is a murder. Any man who looks upon a woman to lust after her is an adulterer... even if he hasn't introduced himself yet. If you offend your brother with your meat, you've sinned, even though that meat is lawful. Doting questions, debate, backbiting, strife, and strivings about the Law, become sin, for they divide the body and quench love.

Love is the answer.

Now, get this... when we live under the Law, we are conformed into the image of ancient Israel. When we live a life of love we are conformed into the image of Christ. Why? Because Christ was the most perfect expression of God's love. And it goes even further... God is love. And God is Christ. Christ is therefore, love. And so it is when we are the most loving that we become the most... like God.

This holiness is born of intent and being, not action and behavior. And so we see that it is those who are most unconditionally loving, with their love persisting in spite of circumstance, who are the most... holy. It doesn't matter what they eat, drink, what day they worship on, their facial hair, or lack thereof. It has nothing to do with their outward profession. It is born of something deep in the core of their being, something deep beneath the surface of these broken vessels. It is born of... love. A pouring out of pure divine love that emanates from the Holy Spirit within, oozing out of the cracks of these broken vessels.

If we could just grasp this reality we'd abolish every written list of doe's and don'ts issued by men forever and live a life of surrender to divine love. And the world would truly see us as true followers of Jesus.

John 13:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

I pray that we are baptized with a fresh baptism of the love of Christ. A love that transcends law and religion. A love that is timeless and eternal.

When it comes to living under the Law of Christ vs. the Law of Moses, the Law of Moses, even if obeyed to the letter, is too low a standard.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And how will the Spirit teach us what we should do?

And how would a person know if they are on the right track or not?

Please explain.

If Jesus is alive in one, such a question would seem silly. Live incarnationally. Live as a living extension of Jesus, as a branch of the True Vine. Allow Him to flow through you. Feel Him. Sense Him. Abide in Him, as He abides in you. Let His very person and nature flow through you. When this living relationship is REAL to a person, it cannot be denied. It can only be experienced.

John 14:20 (ESV)
20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Romans 7:6 (ESV)
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:1-5 (ESV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:17 (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Galatians 2:20 (ESV)
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If Jesus is alive in one, such a question would seem silly. Live incarnationally. Live as a living extension of Jesus, as a branch of the True Vine. Allow Him to flow through you. Feel Him. Sense Him. Abide in Him, as He abides in you. Let His very person and nature flow through you. When this living relationship is REAL to a person, it cannot be denied. It can only be experienced.

John 14:20 (ESV)
20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Romans 7:6 (ESV)
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8:1-5 (ESV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:17 (ESV)
17 But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

Galatians 2:20 (ESV)
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

I find it strange that you seem to be using Bible verses to prove that one doesn't need the Bible if they "have Jesus inside."

And that is what your line of thinking boils down. "Dusty old scrolls"? Whether you realize it or not, you have essentially severed yourself from the Word.

So you can call me a legalist all you want, if that's what you think. I believe the Bible is the SOLE RULE FOR FAITH AND PRACTICE. Those "dusty old scrolls" are the only reason you even know about a guy named Jesus. I'll follow the Bible, and you follow your inward perceptions and hunches. I know the Bible is Truth, it IS reality, and a person's inward perceptions, hunches, feelings, impulses, whatever, are to be measured against the WORD.

To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by peter83

Am i saying something like that? Who told you that "in the name of love" we can do what ever we want?

That is the logical conclusion of your position.

In the law is written to swear in his name. In the new testament Jesus said to DO NOT SEAR AT ALL.
In the law is written to divorce your wife . In the new testament is SIN.
In the law is written Love your brother and hate your enemy.In the New Testament says LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

Please provide the citations from the Law that command the things you are claiming it says.

Do you understand my point? Your logic is that if we dont keep Sabbaths we sin.

Sin is "transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

Is Jesus offender of the law then? (NO)

Jesus did not sin, and thus did not transgress the law. You shouldn't, either.

Do you understand that the Law of the Spirit and Love is much more than the Old Testament law?

I understand you don't want to keep the Sabbath, so you come up with this nebulous amorphous "law of love" that supposedly allows you to break whichever commandments you desire to break. The commandments of God were once written on tables of stone, but in the new covenant they are written in our hearts. (Hebrews 8:10) Did God forget to write the Fourth Commandment in your heart? Why is it not there? Do you have a different new covenant than the one specified in the Bible?

Do you see how the law is coming to perfection now?

Yes, Jesus fulfilled the law and fulfills it in us by His Spirit. (Romans 8:2-4)

Do you understand that

"unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Yes, indeed. The Pharisees had religious beliefs that made the Word of God VOID, they transgressed the commands of God by keeping their man-made uninspired doctrines, kind of like modern Sabbathbreakers. (Matthew 15:1-9)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Dishonoring parent's doesn't demonstrate the love of Christ.

Says who? You? See, without the Word, it's all just private opinion. In regard to parents, sure you think love for Christ motivates you to honour them. It's socially acceptable, and even dopeheads would look down on someone who failed to take care of mom and dad.

But Sabbath? That cuts into people's "me time", back yard bbq's, shopping, Friday night whatever, mowing the yard, or working an extra shift to make more money.

IF your religion of "love" allows you to dispense with one commandment, it allows you to dispense with any commandment. And for the exact same reasons.

The only standard, then, that remains, is personal opinion, subjective feeling, and local cultural peer pressure. All lumped under the category of "led by the Spirit."

I asked Sean several times about this, he apparently doesn't know how to explain being "led by the Spirit." Every cult under the sun claims to be led by the Spirit. So, how does one determine where the Spirit is leading?

Apart from the Word, there is no way to know.

[mfblume]

Keeping the sabbath as a requirement from God is dangerous to satisfying the flesh's lust to add at least its two cents into the means to salvation. And it causes us to miss the REAL rest Hebrews 4 is speaking about which is by no means a mere day. It's the rest of Heb 10:19-23.