I have Left the UPC Church

[SDG]

Originally Posted by apostaholic_friend

Im doing fine, friend. I always look out for your posts here, Digging. I lurk an awful lot more than I post

Is it really you?? ... say it ain't so my friend ... how ya been?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Is it really you ... say it ain't so my friend ... how ya been?

Hey Daniel. Yep its me. Im doing fine thanks, how about you? You're another one that I keep an eye on over here. I love your relentless style

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

The jews don't believe in Jesus either but it is still the same God that they worship... even if their way is wrong...

The Jews don't worship Jesus. The old will died when the testator did. Read Hebrews 9:16,17. If the Jews worhsipped Jesus, they would be saved. (I guess you said they didn't worship Jesus, but that is the point.)

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by CC1

Michlow,

I better not run into you at an airport six months from now and see you bald headed and chanting "Hari Krishna"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, don't forget handing out flowers!

Now I have to get busy, I am 16 pages behind on this thread! I hope everyone was nice

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Ron,

That is a nice ideal, but not necessarily so.

A lot of folks do a lot of sifting, and come up with something a long way from truth.

Some folks put what they have been taught in the sifter, and come up believing not much of anything.

This idea that every individual is the sole arbiter of personal truth, and that there really are no absolutes, is not a Scriptural idea.

There are three elements that are in place that enable us to discern truth:

1. The Word of God--this is paramount.

2.The Holy Ghost--given us to lead and guide into all truth.

3.The five-fold ministry--without this, we cannot be perfected.

When you remove any of the three, and decide that you alone are the "sifter," you have concocted a recipe for deception just as sure as you are a foot high.

I am somewhat between a rock and a hard place here. Whereas I agree with you, that no one is an island unto themselves, nevertheless I am in a place where I have lost trust in others.

It is continually my prayer for the Lord to bring trustworthy people into my life, and to help me to begin to trust again.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

You did not.

But your post indicated unequivocally that what was sifted by her--one individual--would be truth.

None of us alone can be the arbiters of truth.

That must be done in the context of the checks and balances given the Body of Christ.

Isolating one's self to search for truth is unscriptural and will always end up in deception.

Paul came and checked what he believed to be revelation with Peter and John before he would trust that it was right.

I hope you do not feel that I am isolating myself. In a way I am separating myself from a particular organization and mindset that I have come to disagree with. Nevertheless, I still have some close friends that are part of that organization and mindset. Friends who I love dearly, and who I believe truly care for me in return. I have no intention of removing myself from those relationship, regardless of whatever differences we may have. However, I cannot blindly follow what they believe to be truth. And granted right now, I may not always be able to listen to what they are saying fairly and without bias.

I think people are more disturbed by the fact that I don't acknowledge any pastoral authority over me, than anything else. Like that means I am totally without accountability.

Originally Posted by Michlow

LOL, don't forget handing out flowers!

Now I have to get busy, I am 16 pages behind on this thread! I hope everyone was nice

I pray that you don't leave God because of leaving a UPC church.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Ultimately it will be up to all of us to submit to the Word, the Spirit and ministry in sifting ... I don't see an inconsistency in Ron's statement ... I think that both Mich and Ron acknowledge the role of these things in their spiritual journey ... A reminder might be warranted ... but we are not dealing w/ immature believers ...

As much as I love to be called mature....

I have openly acknowledged many a time, that I have issues with the ministry, and that I do not accept any spiritual authority over me, except Jesus, and that I have issues with the elevation of the ministry, and the great gulf dividing ministry and laity in the UPC.

To be honest though, a big part of the reason that I do not accept spiritual authority, is that It has been great misused in my experience. My last Pastor was a pretty healthy leader, but by the time I arrived at that church, I had already been burned too many times to accept his authority.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Michelle described herself as a spiritual teenager.

Teenagers definitely need the guidance of authority figures in their lives.

Do you disagree?

I have stayed out of this thread, partially because Michelle is someone I have been burdened for and have prayed for, and I don't want to get in conflict with her.

But I fear she is making some unwise decisions, and I hate to see wrong concepts trotted out that reinforce the faulty thinking.

Bro. C, you don't need to worry about us disagreeing causing conflict. In fact, I had just remarked to a mutual friend that based on your absense, you didn't like me now that I was "liberal"

I respect you, and I value your opinion, and I covet your prayers.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

As gently as I can say this, I have to assert that areas of clear violation of Scriptural principles (and I am not talking about standards) are indicators that all might not be well as far as heart condition and desire for truth goes.

Is it the authority thing? Tithing? Church attendance? Rebelliousness? Watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

I say it somewhat flippantly (like I know any other way...lol), but I am really curious. I can't even deny the charge, as I willfully acknowledge that I am completely messed up!

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Michlow

LOL, don't forget handing out flowers!

Now I have to get busy, I am 16 pages behind on this thread! I hope everyone was nice

They have been talking about ya like you haven't even been in the room. Oh, wait a minute! You haven't!

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

There you have it ... ladies and gentlemen ... a peek into Mich's soul .... there's a word for this ....

It's ok Dan! I can take it! Really! I have never been offended by anything CS has ever said to me! In fact, in the past, he has given me some wonderful advice, and I know that he really cares about me spiritually, and only wants whats best for me. He's not entirely wrong about this, you know. I have openly admitted that I have spent the last 3 years not even liking God, because he seemed a cruel and capricious deity, who demanded absolute perfection. And one cannot be in right relationship with a God they do not like or trust.

That is why I am not so much worried about other minor things, as I am worried about correctly that one thing.