You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

I agree with some of what you are saying here. However, this is NOT what was first being discussed. Eld Epley claimed there was NO BAPTISMS in the OT. "Baptism" means "immersion," which I know you realize. I gave him several scriptures where the Law commanded immersions/mikvahs in the OT. Therefore, what is in question is NOT the types and shadows, but the actual, tangible examples of immersions in the OT.

Thanks!

I agree with you here. but I suspect you and Bro Epley are talking past each other. He is thinking of a preacher immersing someone for remission for sins, and you are thinking of immersing in water alone.

[afp1996]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Revelation indeed is something present that was not shown before. But the truth of the rapture was in God's plan from eternity past, just not indicated anywhere until Paul mentioned it in the NT. Who said something had to be in the OT before it can be claimed to be a NT revelation?

I never said that. Same old same old.

Here we go again.

Well, if this is not what you said then what did you mean by this:

And to say that mikvah immersions are the same thing as water baptism is not true.

A mikvah is a baptism. I take this quote from you as stating that baptism is not in the Old Testament and is, like the rapture doctrine, in the New Testament only.

If I am wrong in assuming this, then tell me so. If so, then what is the beef you have with us saying that baptism is in the Old Testament?

The above statement is why I added your name in with Epley's.

[Falla39]

But since the red Sea stood on either side of them like walls, it was sort of like immersion in that sense. (Quote by Bro. M. Blume)

Bro. Blume,

My late father compared it to an "open ended grave". Watery grave!
Surrounded on either side by water!

Falla39

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with you here. but I suspect you and Bro Epley are talking past each other. He is thinking of a preacher immersing someone for remission for sins, and you are thinking of immersing in water alone.

You might be correct. But if you are, Eld. Epley sure never said as much in his first statement or in any that followed.

Thank you for your clarification.




Eld. Epley, is Bro. Blume correct? Is that what you were trying to say? If so, why would you align this with AFP believers?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by afp1996

A mikvah is a baptism. I take this quote from you as stating that baptism is not in the Old Testament and is, like the rapture doctrine, in the New Testament only.

If I am wrong in assuming this, then tell me so. If so, then what is the beef you have with us saying that baptism is in the Old Testament?

AFP, you are 100% correct. That is what I was showing with the verses I gave.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Falla39

But since the red Sea stood on either side of them like walls, it was sort of like immersion in that sense. (Quote by Bro. M. Blume)

Bro. Blume,

My late father compared it to an "open ended grave". Watery grave!
Surrounded on either side by water!

Falla39

Yes, I agree.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by afp1996

Here we go again.

Well, if this is not what you said then what did you mean by this:

A mikvah is a baptism. I take this quote from you as stating that baptism is not in the Old Testament and is, like the rapture doctrine, in the New Testament only.

I was coming from the approach that water baptism as we know it is something that goes far beyond anything a mikvah provided. That is all. I know there were immersions in water, which is what baptism technically means, but I was speaking about more than that when I noted water baptism. I explained this to Bro Burk.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Jason, you need to stop, study, and then comment.

Come on, this rhetoric gets old and tired. Because I don't but into heretical eschatology dosn't mean I am unlearned and ignorant.

Originally Posted by TK Burk

So now you dictate what can and cannot be said? My policy is if a person has a right to state an error, I have a right to state a truth.

So you are the new standard of truth and orthodoxy?

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Jason, if you are ever to be considered a serious student of God’s Word, then you better get in that Book and learn what you believe, and why you believe it, BEFORE you open your mouth with an opinion.

see debate.

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Jason, the reason men like you and Eld. Epley have a problem with AFPs is not because of what they believe, but because they can articulate and substantiate their position in ways that you brethren cannot. Neither of you are able to disprove the tenets of AFP with scripture.

see debate

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Jason, if it is so heretical, why is it so difficult for you Futurists to find scriptures in the Bible that prove it so?

Really, I don't find it that difficult.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

Eld. Epley, would you please define "baptism"? I am not asking about the method, but what exactly the word means.

Bro. Burk, EVERYONE KNOWS baptism means to immerse. We don't need the Greek. We all agree on what baptism is.

That is precisely my point. Baptism is an immersion, so why did you bring up the scripture about sprinkling saying it was symbolic of water baptism?

As to what baptism is, how it is done, and the reason for it, we all agree.

[afp1996]

Originally Posted by Jason

Bro. Burk, EVERYONE KNOWS baptism means to immerse. We don't need the Greek. We all agree on what baptism is.

That is precisely my point. Baptism is an immersion, so why did you bring up the scripture about sprinkling saying it was symbolic of water baptism?

As to what baptism is, how it is done, and the reason for it, we all agree.

Jason, you did not read why he posted it. Brother Epley stated that there were NO baptisms in the Old Testament. This is catigorically incorrect. That is the point Brother Burk is making.