The Question No One Can Answer

[Monterrey]

The greatest miracle is when I, a sinner who used to love sin, can be converted (healed) and serve God with all my heart.

Jesus said "The poor you have with you always"

[KeptByTheWord]

That is so awesome Chris! There is nothing like the feeling of giving, and expecting nothing in return, but finding that indeed it is much better to give, than to receive!

[Aquila]

We Apostolics like to quote James saying that, "Faith without works is dead." We do this often when talking about our standards. However, let's look at in context to discover what James is really talking about:

James 2:14-26
King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James is talking about works of love and charity towards others. We don't often refer to this text rightly. In fact, too many of us quote this verse to validate the need to obey standards. Then after church we get in our cars, go out to eat, go home, and go to work. We do this week after week for years without really understanding what we're called to do. Getting beyond this religiosity is indeed a miracle, a work of the Spirit. We believe in one God, as do the devils. However, it really means nothing if we're not living a life of love and service to others.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

The greatest miracle is when I, a sinner who used to love sin, can be converted (healed) and serve God with all my heart.

Jesus said "The poor you have with you always"

I think of the quote, "Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime."

While we should give to those who are in need, indeed Monterrery, the greater thing is that the gospel be presented to them so that it can change their heart, and they can eat for a lifetime, feeding off the riches that are found in Jesus Christ.

There is a book written by KP Yohannan "Revolution in World Missions". You can get this book at www.gfa.org for a donation. It is an incredible book, and addresses this very issue being discussed.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We Apostolics like to quote James saying that, "Faith without works is dead." We do this often when talking about our standards. However, let's look at in context to discover what James is really talking about:

James 2:14-26
King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James is talking about works of love and charity towards others. We don't often refer to this text rightly. In fact, too many of us quote this verse to validate the need to obey standards. Then after church we get in our cars, go out to eat, go home, and go to work. We do this week after week for years without really understanding what we're called to do. Getting beyond this religiosity is indeed a miracle, a work of the Spirit. We believe in one God, as do the devils. However, it really means nothing if we're not living a life of love and service to others.

This is the only difference in the goats and the sheep in Matthew 25, that the ED's like to refer to so much. The sheep were serious and naturally performed these "acts of love and charity toward others", and the goats did not!

Therefore, I believe these things are very important to God!!!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm just saying that most of the saints I know have made little room to even volunteer once every three months. Many of these shelters desperately need hands. And I'm primarily talking about those healthy and strong enough to volunteer. And I'm also talking about only maybe four hours on a Saturday or another day once every three months. Something.

Most saints I know are always finding a way to give either monetary or of themselves.

I see a big problem with this quote. We don't serve others, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, care for the sick, and offer help in general in order to make them choose God. We do it because it's the right thing to do. The poor we will have with us always. Some are slackers. Some are not. Most suffer from mental illness. Many have been ravished by drugs and alcohol. Most still struggle with drugs and alcohol. It would be nice to see them get clean, but many have given up. We don't cease helping those in need if they suddenly say, "Hey, your Jesus thing isn't for me." We smile, and say, "That's fine. And we're still here for you." Besides, we don't chose God. God chooses us. No man comes to Christ unless the Father draws him. Sometimes, when one is full of the Spirit, one can sense who God is drawing out of the crowd of needy people. Minister to them. Become the door through which the Father can draw one to Christ.

You read my quote the way you wanted to read it. I don't know anyone who extends themselves in serving in some way who does it to "make" someone choose God. Any sensible person knows you can't make an individual do something they don't want to do. We extend ourselves to be of help, to lighten the load, to brighten someone's day. If they find God in the midst, then it's a plus.

I believe we are our brother's keeper.

Again, you read my comment the way you wanted to. Any sensible person knows that you can become exhausted by extending yourself (even Jesus came away from the crowds), but you keep doing it not worrying about the person's mindset or the outcome - you just pour yourself out allowing God to do the work.

Are you saying you couldn't volunteer at a local shelter or pantry for just four hours every three months?

Umm, no, that wasn't my point. After reading a lot of your posts on this type of subject, you have a very low expectation about people. You seem to try to present yourself as the only person who has the most compassion and understanding about the world around us. I see compassionate people all the time. I've never been in a church where the largest percentage didn't want to give of their time and money. So, the guilt trip you try to put people on seems ridiculous and self-serving to me. Maybe I am misreading you like you are doing me.

Of course, that's the carnal mind. The carnal mind wants to see miracles and fireworks. Those who see through the Spirit find that seeing people (who are sinful and selfish by nature) giving of their time and resources to help another without any desire for repayment to be a far greater miracle. It's rare. For example, Mother Theresa's service to the sick and needy in India is a greater miracle than a man's limb growing back. So what, a leg grows back. Medical science is getting to the point where they can grow organs and limbs too. Ah... but overcoming self, pride, ego, and serving others without the desire to be repaid or to have them do as you want... that's truly something. (In my opinion.)

LOL! Aquila, giving and serving is the most loving Christian thing we can do. But don't tell me that IF you had a leg amputated and it grew back you wouldn't be jumping around and praising God like the man at the gate called Beautiful. And don't tell me you would be doing the same if you were hungry and someone handed you a bowl of chili. Puleeeese.

[Aquila]

My primary point is that we so often focus on the sensational miracles. And I'm not saying they are bad. What I'm saying is that we often ignore the less sensational miracles that are all around us.

As for charity work, I can only speak of my own experience. I've yet to have anyone from a church I've attended volunteer at a shelter, food bank, or soup kitchen. They typically complain that these are "not Apostolic". Or they complain that these people just want handouts. Or they complain that the church doesn't get recognized. Or they say it's "casting pearls before swine" (which I never understood that perspective). Or they argue that they aren't called to do it.

When I was a liaison for the United Way, I faced similar arguments when asking for people to commit to donations to help the Dayton Food Bank and Dressed To Work.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My primary point is that we so often focus on the sensational miracles. And I'm not saying they are bad. What I'm saying is that we often ignore the less sensational miracles that are all around us.

As for charity work, I can only speak of my own experience. I've yet to have anyone from a church I've attended volunteer at a shelter, food bank, or soup kitchen. They typically complain that these are "not Apostolic". Or they complain that these people just want handouts. Or they complain that the church doesn't get recognized. Or they say it's "casting pearls before swine" (which I never understood that perspective). Or they argue that they aren't called to do it.

When I was a liaison for the United Way, I faced similar arguments when asking for people to commit to donations to help the Dayton Food Bank and Dressed To Work.

I have NEVER heard anyone say such ridiculous things - NEVER. And I doubt you heard "very many" say that either - "not Apostolic" or "casting pearls before swine". Don't broadbrush Christians over your experiences.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I have NEVER heard anyone say such ridiculous things - NEVER. And I doubt you heard "very many" say that either - "not Apostolic" or "casting pearls before swine". Don't broadbrush Christians over your experiences.

We were a very conservative bunch in this area. In fact, we often spoke of other Apostolic churches as being backslidden because the pastor allowed wedding rings and tolerated television. I assure you that the things I was told indeed were said.

Lastly, I haven't painted with a broad brush. I've only spoken about my own experiences in the churches I've attended. Don't get me wrong... these churches had charity drives to collect food during the Christmas season. They aren't all bad people. It just shocks me that more don't volunteer.

You sound really upset here. Relax. I'm just sharing my experience. If you have members of your church volunteering at various charitable organizations, or the church runs a charity service of some kind, I certainly am not talking about your church. I know there are good churches out there that are very busy helping those in need in one way or another. Forgive me if it sounded like I was painting every church the same.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We were a very conservative bunch in this area. In fact, we often spoke of other Apostolic churches as being backslidden because the pastor allowed wedding rings and tolerated television. I assure you that the things I was told indeed were said.

Lastly, I haven't painted with a broad brush. I've only spoken about my own experiences in the churches I've attended. Don't get me wrong... these churches had charity drives to collect food during the Christmas season. They aren't all bad people. It just shocks me that more don't volunteer.

You sound really upset here. Relax. I'm just sharing my experience. If you have members of your church volunteering at various charitable organizations, or the church runs a charity service of some kind, I certainly am not talking about your church. I know there are good churches out there that are very busy helping those in need in one way or another. Forgive me if it sounded like I was painting every church the same.

Okay, I will relax.

I think I might agree that some of that mindset did take place, but it if it did, it was 30 years or more ago. The whole nation was more conservative and strict in every way, which, IMO, made some churches appear less compassionate.