Islam vs. Christianity Part 1

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You (PressingOn) are right. And, since it entertains you (or appears to) you are well within your rights, if you have a Muslim co-worker, who also smokes, to innocently say "I was told that Islam prohibits smoking. Is that true?" and certainly entertain yourself by watching and listening to him or her squirm out of it. It is the same shifty eyed squirm that your fellow christians do when you bring up the requirement to tithe,

You keep mentioning things that are Old Testament laws. In the O.T., people's prosperity was a sign of God being on their side. Tithing is not a requirement anymore. The Bible says (New Testament) said "when you give, give with a cheerful heart." As my Old Testament History taught me, if farmers (he grew up in an agricultural family) were required to tithe 10 percent, they'd never be able to keep the farm, because much of their "investing" goes to the next years crop. I asked this question to a former co-worker who also works on a farm (in addition to working full time), and she agreed.
THE OLD TESTAMENT HAS:
-Dietary Laws
-Civil Laws
-Ceremonial Laws
Non-Believers often confuse many of them, and think they have the same relevance.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

or the requirement for women to cover their hair in church,

First Century/early church practice. There are also many Muslim women who do not cover their heads as well(gasp).

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

or other less palatable teachings of christianity. Indeed the same shifty eyed squirm that I detected after the introduction of the subject of alters (laughing).

You can't even see our faces. Shifty eyed squirm? What color are my eyes (all the better to see you with, my dear)?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You do it, have it, teach it, man up and say "yes it's there but I do not follow that teaching". Lots of "christians" do bad things all week then show up in shiny new clothes and freshly applied hairspray on sunday morning. I actually, like muslim smokers, find that sad and not hilarious at all.

That's the whole reason we keep going to church every Sunday. We still don't get it right. But smoking will not send someone to Hell. Jesus taught that what we put into our bodies will be secreted out(e.g. pork, sausages). It's what we put in our minds that sends a person to Hell:namely false teaching(e.g. Islam). BTW, since you have an incorrect view of our dietary laws, I'm surprised you haven't blamed the swine flu on eating pork yet.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Since things you are supposed to do are clearly spelled out I actually cannot imagine that during final judgement these people will be or have the right to be stunned or surprised.

In Christianity, there is only one reason people will go to Hell: they rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, and relied on their own works to "save themselves." BTW, God doesn't send people to Hell. They choose to go there themselves. Everything else has been bought and paid for by Jesus Christ. As the O.T. prophet Isaiah said "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags." According to my O.T. History teacher, in the Hebrew language, the rags Isaiah speaks of can best be described as "a bloody tampon."

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

As to the compass, I have seen one - it is in units of degrees and based on your location it has a red arrow that will indicate the (generally closest) direction of the Kabaa. I, and most I know, personally take the practical approach that specifies that if you do not know, just pray anyway, because I do not generally have the time to waste to do the research. If I know the direction I will face the direction. If I do not, I will take my best guess and not waste the energy to worry about it.

Feigning a GASP. But that also leads to another question:THEN WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF EVEN BEING A MUSLIM IF IT DOESN'T MATTER? Maybe you're a cross between a Muslim and a Christian. A Mustian? A Chrislim?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

You (capn TP) obviously do not travel much.

What's the amount of my "frequent flyer miles" got to do with anything?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

One of the offered channels on intl flights, in addition to movies or seinfield or news or the others, is a map. Generally a portion of the world map. It shows the country (you can zoom in on most flights) you are over with the nearest reference cities. For instance, between Amsterdam and Dammam (which is 30 minutes from Bahrain) As you fly over the middle east it will show where the plane is located relative to different cities. For instance, the map will show Tel Aviv, Damascus, Amman relative to where you are located in that part of the world. It drives my wife crazy because that's the channel I always keep it on just out of idle curiosity. Try not to confuse the magazines with the TV screen. I have not been on a smoking flight since the early 70's so have no comment on "smoking muslims on airplanes" but I suppose it can happen. I listed my preferred airlines in order of preference. Short flights on Eithad (Doha bases) also prohibit smoking. Perhaps Eithad qualifies as "arab air" since the people who run the company have brown skin.

Do you even read any of the links we post on this site? I gave you two sources. You think because you don't fly it, or it doesn't fly in your area, it doesn't exist?

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

As to killing "apostate christians" you can certainly, if that is what tingles you below the belt, start right there at home and work your way around the world. It's your idea. Good luck. It probably is not profitable. So you probably will just wiggle your gums about it then forget the idea.

What is this obsession you have as to what lies "below my belt?" Do you mean in relation to toilet paper or the reason for a "jock strap?"

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

"preference for washing" is not "aversion to toilet paper". "preference for washing" became "aversion to toilet paper" only in your own opinionated mind. Certainly arabs, in their own countries, would not have toilet paper in their own bathrooms if they have "aversion" to it. Since everything I have seen indicates that they do, then YOUR concept of "aversion" becomes bunk. It is not your first bunk concept.

Diverting attention again. You could have solved this whole this merely by saying yes or no as to Arabs using their "sands" and "hands" instead of T.P.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

I was pretty clear and tried to use small words and simple speech on that alter issue, predicting the shifty-eyed response (see similar approach YOU can use on "muslims and smoking") Your church have an alter or not? Most churches have an alter or not? Is it called an alter? You probably do, it probably has, and it probably is if you go to an apostolic church. Interesting it's still an "alter call" even if the church does NOT have a built, installed alter. Probably just a figure of speech. Remember it was I and not you who noted the symbolism of the alter anyway. I now feel validated.

The church I am attending currently does not have an altar. Neither did the one I attended prior to this for over a decade. BTW, even Billy Graham has "altar calls" in football/baseball stadiums THAT DON'T HAVE ALTARS ANYWHERE.

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam=748486

No matter where you face, alter or otherwise, if you pray to God you pray to God. I am just parroting your point since you "bow to the heavens" to pray or turn your back to the alter and pray towards the pew or (since I brought up the alter thing) now "pray anyhow or anywhere or in any method that does not involve the alter". THAT, is hilarious.

Again, you're avoiding Prax' question about the Kabaa.

BTW, in an earlier post, I said Muhammed came from a city that bore a striking resemblance to the word Quran, your holy book. I was wrong, it wasn't the name of Mohammed's birthplace, but the name of his tribe that he came from: Qurasych, or something like that. Qurasych, Quran. Hmmmm. Interesting.

[Walks_in_islam]

Some are old and some are new.

Originally Posted by Thomas Trini

You keep mentioning things that are Old Testament laws. In the O.T., people's prosperity was a sign of God being on their side. Tithing is not a requirement anymore. The Bible says (New Testament) said "when you give, give with a cheerful heart." As my Old Testament History taught me, if farmers (he grew up in an agricultural family) were required to tithe 10 percent, they'd never be able to keep the farm, because much of their "investing" goes to the next years crop. I asked this question to a former co-worker who also works on a farm (in addition to working full time), and she agreed.
THE OLD TESTAMENT HAS:
-Dietary Laws
-Civil Laws
-Ceremonial Laws
Non-Believers often confuse many of them, and think they have the same relevance.

I am aware of the train of logic with net result that "there is no requirement to tithe and return to God a portion of what God has given to me". The faith of your farming friends is touching. The difference between those who believe in God and walk in God's path and follow God's laws is that everything they have is attributed to God and only God. They are stewards of what God has given to them. Those who do not believe in God and follow God's laws believe that they earn, make, and keep things for themselves. Which are you?

First Century/early church practice. There are also many Muslim women who do not cover their heads as well(gasp).

I am aware of the train of logic with net result "Paul, in the New Testament REALLY just meant that women should not cut their hair" or in most Protestant churches it is ignored altogether. But it was an "early church" practice. Was "early church" church or not? If not, then toss every New Testament teaching.
Or follow it. It is in the Bible and not in the Old Testament either. Using "Muslim women who do not follow Muslim teachings" is a laughable analogy.

You can't even see our faces. Shifty eyed squirm? What color are my eyes (all the better to see you with, my dear)?
That's the whole reason we keep going to church every Sunday. We still don't get it right. But smoking will not send someone to Hell. Jesus taught that what we put into our bodies will be secreted out(e.g. pork, sausages). It's what we put in our minds that sends a person to Hell:namely false teaching(e.g. Islam). BTW, since you have an incorrect view of our dietary laws, I'm surprised you haven't blamed the swine flu on eating pork yet.
In Christianity, there is only one reason people will go to Hell: they rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, and relied on their own works to "save themselves." BTW, God doesn't send people to Hell. They choose to go there themselves. Everything else has been bought and paid for by Jesus Christ. As the O.T. prophet Isaiah said "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags." According to my O.T. History teacher, in the Hebrew language, the rags Isaiah speaks of can best be described as "a bloody tampon."

I am aware of the train of logic with net result "we can put anything we want into our bodies even though they are a 'temple' because we have "faith" and "works and details like that do not matter" I must have "squirm detection" on my PC cuz I sure did see red flashing lights <snicker>

Feigning a GASP. But that also leads to another question:THEN WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF EVEN BEING A MUSLIM IF IT DOESN'T MATTER? Maybe you're a cross between a Muslim and a Christian. A Mustian? A Chrislim?
What's the amount of my "frequent flyer miles" got to do with anything?
Do you even read any of the links we post on this site? I gave you two sources. You think because you don't fly it, or it doesn't fly in your area, it doesn't exist?

The unity in facing the Kabaa matters. The significance of that worldwide unity is separate from the untrue statement that "Islam teaches that God does not hear your prayer if you are facing in the wrong direction". On the airline issue I clearly said "I suppose it happens" then said I have never seen it. There are a finite number of airlines. I have to fly places all the time. I personally know of none that allow smoking on their flights. Now I see that a few do. But Islam teaches that you are not supposed to put anything harmful into your body. Smoking is harmful. So how can Islam have anything to do with whether or not an airline allows smoking?

What is this obsession you have as to what lies "below my belt?" Do you mean in relation to toilet paper or the reason for a "jock strap?"
Diverting attention again. You could have solved this whole this merely by saying yes or no as to Arabs using their "sands" and "hands" instead of T.P.
The church I am attending currently does not have an altar. Neither did the one I attended prior to this for over a decade. BTW, even Billy Graham has "altar calls" in football/baseball stadiums THAT DON'T HAVE ALTARS ANYWHERE.

I am aware of the current distaste with the symbolic nature of the alter

Again, you're avoiding Prax' question about the Kabaa.

I noted weeks ago that the Kabaa was a site of worship of MANY DIFFERENT gods (including the ones that Muslims are accused of worshipping) then noted that they were all torn down, removed, and destroyed. The ones "Muslims worship" were also torn down for some reason. The Kabaa now stands and symbolizes a place for prayer to the One, True God. It is shaped like a box. Kabaa simply means cube. Prax's question was not a question it was a comparison between a cube and a female body part. An inappropriate one for this site but nevertheless a comparison that requires a significant stretch.

BTW, in an earlier post, I said Muhammed came from a city that bore a striking resemblance to the word Quran, your holy book. I was wrong, it wasn't the name of Mohammed's birthplace, but the name of his tribe that he came from: Qurasych, or something like that. Qurasych, Quran. Hmmmm. Interesting.

OK. You are now rambling. Keep going and perhaps you can make a connection with the "anti-christ" and settle the question for the board once and for all. Maybe you can be the only one ever to solve that puzzle and let the pope, obama, and the EU off the hook while snagging the muslims

[Walks_in_islam]

No harm. My wife and I were shopping in a flea market in Texas a couple years ago (laughing, NOT not for ID for "entertainment purposes"). We ran into a lady who ran a stall there that sold indian goods (India indian, not native american indian) who asked us if we were Muslim (probably the head cover lol) we said yes, and she told us that her sister, who is non-muslim, was dating a muslim guy, and that he and his friends spent a great deal of their time smoking dope, etc etc. This winner is also apparantly pretty verbally abusive to her sister. So we, innocently shopping, had to apologize for this loser and note that in fact that muslims do not actually date and that these are not behaviors of muslims. Me? I do not know the guy but wanted to deliver a swift kick to him. This lady, who was very nice and well-travelled, now has this image of "islam" permanently stamped in her mind. So, if you bring this up, it does not annoy me at you at all but it certainly brings distaste in my mind for those you example from. No matter who you are, what you do and say conveys a message that reflects back on what you claim to be. A personal and valuable lesson for my wife and me.

I do not have an answer for the jihadists, dopers, coke addicts, Vegas gamblers, and abusers who say they are "Muslim". The only answer I have is that those who enjoy that and do these things now will lose their reward in the end. And you know what? As I said earlier, they will probably not be stunned at that time either.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Even though what I said was true, I apologize for being personal about it. I'll try to stay on topic and not horse around with it. It's much too serious of a topic to get personal. I apologize again.

[Walks_in_islam]

Your post is a reminder to all that this is an example of what Christianity is about and what it should be. We do not agree on some things Jason, but crediting God for the things in your life is most assuredly something that we have in common. Some of the prophecies of the Messengers are fulfilled. The prophecy of a Messiah who will live on and will bring peace to the earth has not been. Most agree that this will be soon, but that has been said for centuries now and it will happen when it does. I appreciate and have no quarrel with your faith or your message.

WII

Originally Posted by Jason

just a reminder for you W.I.I.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

(laughing) I got the point. None of you have or pray at an alter. Got it. <cough>yeahright<cough> 'scuse me. OH and "alter services" do not happen. Even the word "alter" is not used. Got that too. I was confused there. <cough>liar<cough> re-scuse me. <sniff> Must be a touch of 'pig' flu. See reference to boxes below. Probably where it came from.

There were idols at the Kabaa. 300+ of them. They were all destroyed. The last idol standing was Hubal. It was destroyed as well. But we're repeating now aren't we.

The Kabaa is shaped like a cube. You know, a box. You like that boxy shape do you? Good thing too. Boxes need love too. How fortunate for the boxes of the world. (I am so keeping a straight face) This train of commentary is RICH with promise. I will now go have my tongue stitched. It's nearly bitten in half.

No actually you did NOT get the point, I said we DO pray AT an alter. We don't worship facing an alter like you guys face that rock in Mecca. BTW up until this point I have not called you any names, have I?

As for the Kaaba. The meteorite stone was not destroyed. It was a central part of pre islamic pagan worship. Muhammed kept it.

Here is the main Kaaba building being adored

[Praxeas]

and here is the stone

Kissing the stone


BTW I know YOU won't read this but others here might.

Hindu influence found on the Kaaba?
http://www.hinduism.co.za/kaabaa.htm

More input
The Black Stone, or the Kaaba stone, is set on the outside of one corner of the Kaaba is kissed by all pilgrims who can gain access to it. It is a dark, red brown, and now encased in a massive silver band. It is presumed to be of pre-Islamic origin, possibly meteoric. Myths claim that it fell from heaven, or perhaps that it was brought to earth by angels as a white stone in order to provide the cornerstone of the original Kaaba. It turned black by the impure touch of humans across the millennium. It is lovingly referred to as "the cornerstone of the House," or even the "right hand of God on earth." This stone was presented by Gabriel for the Kaaba and the people who worshipped within it. Muslims, in general, try to kiss, touch, or point to the Kaaba Stone, and often make circumbulations (tawaf) around it. Such circumbulations form, during the pilgrimage season, an integral part of the pilgrimage performance. This circumbulation is performed in the vicinity of the Kaaba, on the polished granite called the mataf. There is a place between the Black Stone and a raised door, against which pilgrims press their bodies in order to receive the blessings and powers that are associated with the holy house. Muslim peoples claim that it is not an idol to be worshipped, instead it is a special place from which to send prayers. The correct name for the Kaaba Stone is the Al-Hajarul Aswad.

Farus Nabi quotes al-Kalbi as saying:

“Before Muhammad, the Ka’aba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in djinn (subtle beings), with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat (“the goddess”), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah (“the mighty”), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Taif and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Ka’aba’. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad and that they believed had come from the moon.”[12]

[Praxeas]

In this connection, Robert Briffault quotes al-Kindy saying:

“Al-Uzza was the moon, her chief shrine being the Ka’aba at Mecca, where she was worshipped in the form of a sacred stone, … the very stone which the pilgrims to this day visit Mecca to kiss. In doing so the pilgrims recite Caliph Omar's warning declaration: ‘I know well that you are a stone that can neither do good nor evil, and unless I had seen the prophet, on whom be prayer and the blessings of god kiss you, I would not kiss you.”[13]

Karen Armstrong says:

“Al-Lat had a shrine at Taif, which was in a cooler and more fertile part of the Hijaz, and al-Uzza had one Naklah to the south east of Mecca and that Manat, the fateful one had her shrine at Qudayd on the Red Sea coast.”
“When the Arabs venerated these stones they were not worshipping them in any crude simplistic way but were seeing in them a focus of divinity. … The Arabs may not have worshipped al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat in a personalized way, but we shall see that they felt very passionate about them. … Their cultus was confined to their shrines …, but they were an essential part of the spiritual landscape of the Bedouin of the Hijaz, who saw Nakhlah, Taif and Qudad as holy places and sanctuaries where Arabs could find their centre. The antiquity of the Goddesses was another reason for their cult. When they worshipped them in their shrines, the Arabs felt in touch with their forefathers, who had venerated the banat-al-Llah there, and this provided a healing sense of continuity.”[14]

She also notes:

“The hajj was originally an Autumn rite apparently persecuting the dying sun to bring on the winter rains. Pilgrims would rush in a body to the hollow of Muzdalifa, the abode of the Thunder God, make an all-night vigil on the plain by Mt. Arafat, hurl pebbles at the three sacred pillars of Mina and offer an animal sacrifice.”[15]

Muhammad overthrew the old religion of Arabia, but he retained hajj and some other rituals of paganism, as it was his mission to reconcile with the old religion by Islam, of which he was the head, receiving the sanction of the immemorial deity.

Philip K. Hitti says:

“The pagan ka’bah, which became the Palladium of Islam, was an unpretentious cube-like (hence the name) building of primitive simplicity, originally roofless, serving as a shelter for a black meteorite which was venerated as a fetish.”[16]

[Praxeas]

Because the al-Hajar-ul-Aswad (black stone) was believed to have the power of making women pregnant, the Pagans preserved it in goddess al-Uzza’s vulva, to be touched and kissed by the pilgrims, who came to Mecca to perform their hajj and umra. The following illustration of the enclosure of the stone should make my point clear:
In their belief in the efficacious nature of the fetish, the Pagan women went a step further: after kissing it, they offered themselves to the holy pilgrims. From this ancient practice of the Pagans, the Shiites have developed the concept of temporary marriage during the period of pilgrimage. It is stipulated at a fixed date and the parties of such unions do not give signs of recognition if they subsequently meet. Any children of such unions are regarded as a blessing in the family and are looked upon as divine children or saints.[17]


Although Allah has strictly forbidden the worship of gods and their statues, Muslims have been continuing not only to venerate the House of the Pagans gods and goddesses by circumambulating around it, they have also been committing another serious sin by putting their heads into the goddess al-Uzza’s vulva in order to kiss the black stone that remains hidden inside it. This illustration supports my contention:


Dr. Nawal Saadawi was the first woman in Egyptian history to be threatened with a forced divorce for expressing a view that was identical to that of mine on the pagan background of the hajj and the absurdity of kissing a stone. She was accused of apostasy for allegedly insulting Islam and its rituals.[18]


Her problems compounded after she criticized Anwar Sadat’s regime in 1981. Dismissed from the government’s post of the Director of Public Health, she found herself on a fundamentalist death list, which forced her and her husband into hiding. During the course of an interview with the journalist Wahid Ra’fat of the Egyptian Weekly al-Maydan, Nawal referred to the historically accepted fact that elements of the Hajj, such as kissing the black stone, had pre-Islamic, pagan roots.
http://www.islam-watch.org/MAsghar/M...re-of-Hell.htm

[Praxeas]

So what is your opinion of the so called "Satanic Verses" incident of Muhammed?

There are numerous reports on the alleged incident, which differ in the construction and detail of the narrative, but they may be broadly collated to produce a basic account.[1] In its essential form, the story reports that Muhammad longed to convert his kinsmen and neighbors of Mecca to Islam. As he was reciting Sūra an-Najm[2], considered a revelation by the angel Gabriel, Satan supposedly tempted him to utter the following lines after verses 19 and 20 ("Have you considered Allāt and al-'Uzzā / and Manāt, the other third?")
These are the exalted gharāniq, whose intercession is hoped for. Allāt, al-'Uzzā and Manāt were three goddesses worshipped by the Meccans. Discerning the meaning of "gharāniq" is difficult as it is a word found only in one place. Commentators wrote that it meant the Numidian cranes, which fly at great heights[citation needed]. The Arabic word does generally mean a "crane" - appearing in the singular as ghirnīq, ghurnūq, ghirnawq and ghurnayq, and the word has cousin forms in other words for birds, including "raven, crow" and "eagle".[3]


The subtext to this allegation is that Muhammad was backing away from his otherwise uncompromising monotheism by saying that these goddesses were real and their intercession effective. The Meccans were overjoyed to hear this and joined Muhammad in ritual prostration at the end of the sūrah. The Muslim refugees who had fled to Abyssinia heard of the end of persecution and started to return home. Islamic tradition holds that Gabriel chastised Muhammad for adulterating the revelation, at which point [Qur'an 22:52] is revealed to comfort him,
We have sent no messenger or apostle before youwith whose recitations Satan did not tamper.Yet God abrogates what Satan interpolates;then He confirms His revelations,for God is all-knowing and all-wise. Muhammad took back his words and the persecution by the Meccans resumed. Verses [Qur'an 53:21] were given, in which the goddesses are belittled.[citation needed] The passage in question reads:
Have you thought of Allāt and al-'Uzzāand Manāt, the other third?Are there sons for you, and daughters for Him?This is certainly an unjust apportioning.These are only names which you and your fathers have invented. No authority was sent down by God for them. They only follow conjecture and wish-fulfillment, even though guidance had come to them already from their Lord.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses

[Thomas Trini]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Some are old and some are new.

You ask me to answer all of these questions, yet you never answered many of ours in regards to the Quran. I don't mind debate, but one way conversations/dialogues are quite different. You're stuck in legal issues in regards to a religion. This isn't surprising, since you belong to a religion that is works based, and not faith based. You live entirely in a system of do's and don'ts. So even if I explain it, you'll just come up with other issues because Islam is a system of jumping endlessly through hoops until you MAYBE inherit eternal life. But one slip and its off to the fiery furnace of Hell.