In reply to Pel's statement that my view called "baggage" detracts from the Bible I replied:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo
I disagree. I think if you were teaching a Bible study, read the account of the flood straight out of the Bible, and then began comments on it with "There was never really a flood, this story doesn't mean what is says, its actually symbolic of........." I think such a stance detracts from the Bible's account.
Bump for Pel.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
I don't agree with Timmy's conclusions, but what I appreciate about Him is since he has chosen not to believe the Bible, he doens't "have a dog in the fight" and He simply bears witness to what the Bible says.
The Bible plainly teaches a flood in which all of the human race were wiped out but 8 people. It is not allegorical, and nothing in the Bible hints at it as allegorical.
Just tryin' to help!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
If the Noah story was allegory, is the coming of the Son of man also allegory?
Jason, don't forget Hebrews 11:7. "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
There are a number of complex issues here which we probably won't do justice to.
It may be that some or even all of the writers of the NT accepted a literal view of the Flood of Noah.
Some will argue, "aha! If the apostles "believed" it, then we have to believe a literal application as well. - But not so quickly, here.
Did Matthew "believe" Jeremiah wrote the book of Zechariah? (See Matthew 27:9). Or, do we simply have more homework to do?
Did the apostles believe that Abraham was justified by faith (Romans 4:2-6) or by works (James 2:21)?
The list is really rather long, but we'll let 2 examples suffice for now. Just what did the apostles "believe" and can we even be certain that we are following their beliefs exactly when we can't even determine their understanding on an issue as important as faith and works?
Our desire to follow the first century apostles is the way to go (IMHO). However we need to temper that with some humility and understand that we're still missing huge chunks of understanding here.
Also, the apostles themselves differed rather pointedly several times on a number of issues. It's not like there was some sort of "pristine" apostolic unity that escapes us today. In fact, just by arguing these things we are actually following the apostolic tradition!
Concerning the "Coming of the Son of Man" ... didn't that already happen? (See Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32). Was it "allegorical" when it did?
We can't even agree about that... so I would hesitate to use this one as some sort of "proof" for anything.
You're such a fundy sycophant, Timmy. Every thing's got to be so literal for you. Why don't you stop beating people over the head with your hardcore religion?
Jason, not to pick on you -- a lot of people say the same thing -- but something you said is a little odd, and not quite true. You said I have chosen not to believe. OK, technically, yes, that is true. But it's not as if I up and decided to stop believing, one day. "Hmm, I think from now on I will not believe the Bible." No, it was a "decision" that I arrived at based on what I read in the Bible, and what I see in life. If they don't agree, then one of them is wrong. Is real life "wrong"? Do I only think I see things happen that the Bible says won't happen? More to the point, what if the Bible says something will happen, but it doesn't? Something had to give. I "chose" to believe real life.
OK, carry on. (But this point is actually quite relevant to the topic at hand, not a hijack!)
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Jason, not to pick on you -- a lot of people say the same thing -- but something you said is a little odd, and not quite true. You said I have chosen not to believe. OK, technically, yes, that is true. But it's not as if I up and decided to stop believing, one day. "Hmm, I think from now on I will not believe the Bible." No, it was a "decision" that I arrived at based on what I read in the Bible, and what I see in life. If they don't agree, then one of them is wrong. Is real life "wrong"? Do I only think I see things happen that the Bible says won't happen? More to the point, what if the Bible says something will happen, but it doesn't? Something had to give. I "chose" to believe real life.
OK, carry on. (But this point is actually quite relevant to the topic at hand, not a hijack!)
Oh, and even more to the point (of the thread), what if the Bible says something did happen, but didn't?
Some, like Pel, when presented with the facts, have chosen to read (and believe) the Bible in a different way than fundy sycophants like me (). Allegories and parables can be "true", though obviously not literal. They teach us something. That's fine. I have an appreciation for many of Jesus' parables and other teachings. But the parable of the flood (if that's what it is) I still have a hard time with. Pel made some good points on that issue, but it's still not very satisfying, to me. (Big surprise!) I still think if it's not literal, and wasn't intended to be taken literally, it reduces to a pretty lame, fear-mongering (oh, maybe that was its purpose!) parable. Most of Aesop's fables were better and more useful to us.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
In reply to Pel's statement that my view called "baggage" detracts from the Bible I replied:
Quote:
I disagree. I think if you were teaching a Bible study, read the account of the flood straight out of the Bible, and then began comments on it with "There was never really a flood, this story doesn't mean what is says, its actually symbolic of........." I think such a stance detracts from the Bible's account.
Bump for Pel.
It would depend upon the manner in which you've introduced your subject. And remember, I was literally THE poster child for Home Bible Studies that included a literal interpretation of the Flood story:
That's me on the right. I just can't substantiate those claims anymore with any honesty. It's just too bogus for me. I don't want to be harsh about other people's beliefs, but I am very harsh and critical of the stuff that I once peddled.
It simply does not stand up to investigation and it certainly isn't necessary for Christian faith.
By "baggage" I meant the literalism that is attached as a weight and hindrance to Christian faith. We've tied this mill stone of Flood and 6 day creation literalism around the necks of our children and then cast them into the sea. Our justification has been, "Well that's better than 'compromise!'" But our kids are still drowning in our absurdities.
How about truth? From my own experience with this thing I finally found that truth does set me free. And lo and behold; there was Jesus Christ Himself, standing beside me the whole time.
Notice too Jason, no one has even tried to offer real geologic or historical evidence of a global flood occurring 4,000 years ago. Aquila has some good points for his local flood hypothesis, but even then he offers no geologic nor archaeological evidence for that event either.
... Off the top of my head (not an exaustive list)
-Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve having been created at the beginning of creation (not millions of years later)
-Jesus testified to the truth of Naamans experience
-Jesus referred to the sudden destruction of Sodom and Ghomorrah
-Jesus referred the Noah's flood, as did Peter
-Jesus referred to the brazen seprant incident
-Paul referred to the parting of the Red Sea, and really the whole Exodus and wilderness experience throughout his writings, and admontions that those things are recorded for our behalf
I'm sure their are more I'm not thinking of right now.
But since the title of this thread is Noah's flood, it should be noted that Jesus and Peter referred to it, and neither seemed to take it as an allegory, but a literal event.
This is good... but I've got to hit the showers right now and get ready for church. I'll take up your excellent list a bit later on today.
Jason, not to pick on you -- a lot of people say the same thing -- but something you said is a little odd, and not quite true. You said I have chosen not to believe. OK, technically, yes, that is true. But it's not as if I up and decided to stop believing, one day. "Hmm, I think from now on I will not believe the Bible." No, it was a "decision" that I arrived at based on what I read in the Bible, and what I see in life. If they don't agree, then one of them is wrong. Is real life "wrong"? Do I only think I see things happen that the Bible says won't happen? More to the point, what if the Bible says something will happen, but it doesn't? Something had to give. I "chose" to believe real life.
OK, carry on. (But this point is actually quite relevant to the topic at hand, not a hijack!)
Timmy, I understand that. My brief statement didn't do justice to your decision.
Personally, I have seen the Bible back itself up many times, none more notable than when God healed my crippled child. I understand that not all people have such experiences, and I'm not railing on your for your doubt of the Bible. I do hope in the very least that before you give up on all Christian religion you would consider the evidence of the historical Jesus, the crucifixion, and the evidence of his resurrection, because he truly is the only Savior.
I have nothing against you Timmy, and despite you great difference of opinions with nearly everyone here (except NOW, who wants to make you a commerative Catholic Saint or something), your input is always respectfully presented even though your conclusions are different from most on AFF. I have no problem with you being here, or chiming in.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Oh, and even more to the point (of the thread), what if the Bible says something did happen, but didn't?
Some, like Pel, when presented with the facts, have chosen to read (and believe) the Bible in a different way than fundy sycophants like me (). Allegories and parables can be "true", though obviously not literal. They teach us something. That's fine. I have an appreciation for many of Jesus' parables and other teachings. But the parable of the flood (if that's what it is) I still have a hard time with. Pel made some good points on that issue, but it's still not very satisfying, to me. (Big surprise!) I still think if it's not literal, and wasn't intended to be taken literally, it reduces to a pretty lame, fear-mongering (oh, maybe that was its purpose!) parable. Most of Aesop's fables were better and more useful to us.
(not addressed specifically to Timmy, but to all)
What if the Bible says something DID happen, and it actually DID?
Frankly, all of us have our opinions, but NO ONE actually knows 100% sure, because none of us were there, or there at creation.
I think that alot of times when we think we have God figured out, that we are far from understanding. I think that if we would consider the questions that God posed to Job, it would make all us consider how little we truly know.
And what was the first thing God started with when speaking to Job- Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Job 38:4
I also like this: Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. Job 38:18
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
), your input is always respectfully presented even though your conclusions are different from most on AFF. I have no problem with you being here, or chiming in. 
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