Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that if we were on the same side of the issue, you wouldn't be calling my posts "sanctimonious".

No, they're sanctimonious regardless.

Reading your posts lately is like reading Liz Taylor advice on how to be committed to your spouse.

Like listening to an obese person teaching dieting tips.

Like hearing your 40 year old single friend give marriage and relationship advice.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that if you had Scriptural support for the prohibition on beards, you'd not need to resort to name calling.

I'm not against beards. Why must I keep reminding you of this?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

And then my family will either lose their utmost respect for Scripture and fall into the cult of personality, or they will begin to hold little regard for the pulpit.

Like husband/father, like....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

No, they're sanctimonious regardless.

Reading your posts lately is like reading Liz Taylor advice on how to be committed to your spouse.

Like listening to an obese person teaching dieting tips.

Like hearing your 40 year old single friend give marriage and relationship advice.

You can judge me. But you still have no Scripture for your position.

You see, this isn't politics. You can't discredit the truth just because the man preaching it too you has struggled greatly to find it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

I'm not against beards. Why must I keep reminding you of this?

You personally are not against beards. But, you continue to support the notion that pastors have the right to make up religious edicts as they go, even when they have no biblical grounds to do so.

[Amanah]

Aquila, your answer is to burn the whole thing to the ground, but you have no plan to rebuild after the crash and burn.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Like husband/father, like....

So, when the church we might decide to attend lowers the boom because of my beard and my kids are wondering why things are now not the same... and I tell them that the church has a standard against beards, and my son says, "But dad, that's not in the Bible..." I'm the one who has to either say, "Sorry son, you have to be assimilated, resistance is futile.", or, "You're right. The man in the pulpit isn't in the Word on this one."

Either way, I stand to have a son who will be disillusioned.

Now, had I never questioned standards and went on my own personal journey to find truth, to study Scripture, and have a personal relationship with God... and had I just stayed in my pew, obeyed every little pastoral edict passed down to me, my children would be all dressed up and meeting the standards, not knowing the difference.

That's sad. That's really sad.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I agree that we have to be under submission. That submission has to be to the Holy Ghost. When we are under submission to the Holy Ghost, we will be under submission to one another.

You have not yet responded to my scriptures about Christ being the head of every man.

You have not responded to the scripture about if you want to be the greatest you have to be least.

Your scripture in Revelation means exactly what it says. Revelation is written to the seven churches. Later, in chapter two Jesus instructs John to write to the angels of the churches. If the angels are pastors, you have a situation where the church is going to receive a letter (as I have pointed out happens twice in chapter one), and then the pastors are going to receive a letter.

If the church receives a letter, don't you think the pastor would read that letter as part of the church? This book being addressed to the church is mentioned twice BEFORE John is instructed to write a letter to the angels of the churches. Once again, here are those references.

Bible, King James Version

Rev.1 Verses 3 to 5

[3] Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
[4] John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Here is where it says, not only who it is addressed TO, but also whom it is FROM.

Here, again is where it says to whom it is addressed.

Bible, King James Version

Rev.1 Verses 10 to 11

[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

So, to believe what you're saying, I would have to believe that Jesus is first saying to send this to the churches, and then later, as if an afterthought, well, send it to the pastors too.

It doesn't make any sense. The angels in Revelation are angels, not pastors. The Good Shepherd is Jesus, not pastors.

It is really pretty clear. It is written in black and white (sometimes red if you have a red letter edition).

Don't be confused. Don't try to complicate it. It is not a trick question. The obvious answer is the correct one!

I can give more details but if you don't see after this there is no point, you have made up your mind and no one could convince you different! Revelations 2:18-23 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Now that was to rebuke the church. But apparently the Pastor the Angel had nothing to do with it. Because he then praises the Pastor the Angel in verse 24 : "But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." It shows exactly who He is speaking to when the text says "but unto you I say." That shows it's to the Angel the Pastor of the house. As James Strong said. This was a letter written by a fleshly man to the fleshly person of Spiritual authority over the house of God. The Pastor. Now you said earlier in this thread:"Brother, I consider these seven scriptures to be one incident. It is not logical to believe that if one of these angels was a heavenly being, that the remaining six weren't heavenly beings as well. Conversely, if one of the stars was actually referring to a pastor, it is safe to say that the remaining star/angels were pastors." So by what you stated, this should be enough proof. But maybe not so I quoted more, just in case!

Now let's go to 2:12-13 " And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; [13] I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth." So Jesus gives the Pastor and the congregation praise. But now I'm verse 14-16 He says "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. [15] So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. [16] Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."

Would a guardian angel, an angelic being have need to Repent? If this angelic being was allowing this to go on, he would be in sin! Guardian Angels don't sin, nor have need to repent! A better question, why would John a fleshly man, be writing a letter to a angel, a spiritual being? Jesus could just speak this as prophecy of what was given to the guardian angels. He wouldn't need John to write anything in that case!

The same could be said of Revelations 2:5 if He was talking to a guardian angel and angelic being why would He say "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." That's because he was rebuking the Pastor with the rest of the congregation. So much He warned of "remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

You are very correct we have to be under submission to the Holy Ghost. But we have to be under submission to His government too. If not why would He say in Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." You have to have someone over you even when you are giving account for other souls. Otherwise the scripture would make it clear, that there is an exception! The scripture says "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls" this means you have to have someone giving account for your soul. He is coming back for His church which is not a building made and constructed by hands. But it has a government and a 5 fold ministry that is ordained and appointed by God. That is His umbrella, and outside of that you are outside.

Outside of the Ark! And what happened to all those outside of the Noahs Ark? They drowned! While you can follow Acts 2:38; and still be as you see it said about so many kings in the book of Kings and Chronicles, who were "right in the sight of God." But then in the next line it said "but their heart was not perfect before Him." For the scripture says in Ephesians 5:27 "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." He is coming for a "glorious church" that is connected to His government, as He gave charge for it to be. God is not going to bless rebellion, no way and no how. He will use you, and even work through you but in the end it will be as Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

That's the bottom line!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You personally are not against beards. But, you continue to support the notion that pastors have the right to make up religious edicts as they go, even when they have no biblical grounds to do so.

I believe a church has the right to set standards and expectations for those who are in its ministry and on its platform.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Aquila, your answer is to burn the whole thing to the ground, but you have no plan to rebuild after the crash and burn.

You've never asked me for what I believe to be a solution. Frankly, I don't think anyone really has. lol

Burning everything to the ground is no solution. I agree, dear sister.

In a perfect world, Apostolic organizations would catch this kind of thing themselves and lift such unbiblical standards from the books and openly encourage pastors to disregard them too.

I would love to see a generation of Apostolics rise up who lovingly and peacefully push the "unbiblical" standards to the way side and invest in a full bore commitment to the Bible, the Word of God.

I'd love to see established Apostolic churches (yes, those with buildings) and pastors (yes, full time salaried pastors, most of which are currently pastoring) invest in creating networks of house churches or "care groups" where their promising young men and women can actively serve in positions of small group ministry as elders under their Senior Pastors. Where Bible studies in these house churches or "care groups" are vibrant, discussion based, prayerful, with gifts flowing, and the pastor can perhaps visit on occasion, or on rotation, just to see how the small groups are doing. I'd like to see the older folks freely share their wisdom and experience in these small groups for the younger generations to glean from them personally, where they can ask candid and often difficult questions, and so that younger saints can voice their questions and/or misunderstandings so that they can be pointed to the answers they seek. I'd like to see these incorporated as part of the midweek schedule, with the entire church meeting en mass at the church building on Sundays. I'd like to see these small groups be self starters who launch out and start additional small groups, growing the church as the network expands until churches need two services every Sunday, with the care groups assigned a service to attend, because their buildings cannot facilitate every member showing up at once.

Pastors and laity elders who serve in these small groups working together, hand in hand, to grow the body of Christ and give every member a voice, a contribution, a song, and an opportunity to use their gifts freely so that no member ever dies with their music still inside them. And where pastoral authority remains an umbrella of protection and accountability for those in ministry.

I'd love to see this as part of a "Bible Revival". A recommitment to the shared study and adoration of God's Word. A study that wouldn't uncover the land mines of contradictory human traditions that have no basis in the Word, but a study throughout homes and in churches that uncover nothing but the pure Word of God. I'd like to see the sudden influx of new faces as the silly standards that have kept so many away are abandoned, and those standards that are based on Scripture are lovingly upheld. And perhaps even the return of previous members who were run off like they were pariahs over small things like beards, brothers embracing and weeping as the body is made whole and healed in these latter days.

That's what I would love to see.