Social drinking?

[Sean]

Aquila Aquila is online now
~Brother in Christ~



Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 20,244
Re: Social drinking?
Excerpt from the link above....
The Prohibitionist Position is contrary to the teaching of Scripture.




1. Old Testament words for alcoholic beverages
QUOTE AQUILA



Remember, the "old wine" was for the Old Testament, but the "New Wine" is for the New Testament. I dont care what they did in the O.T. That has no application to the new, spiritual covenant we are under now, bro.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Remember, the "old wine" was for the Old Testament, but the "New Wine" is for the New Testament. I dont care what they did in the O.T. That has no application to the new, spiritual covenant we are under now, bro.

You should read the entire article...

New Testament words for alcoholic beverages




a. Oinos (wine)


(1) Oinos is very obviously an alcoholic beverage for it is used in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament) to translate each of the Hebrew words that refer to an intoxicating drink (yayin, tirosh, 'asis, shekar, hamer, sobe). Though we saw that there is a Hebrew word for the juice of grapes (mishrah cf. Num. 6:3) used in the Old Testament, the Septuagint does not use oinos (wine) to translate that word which it should have done if oinos (wine) in the New Testament is simply grape juice.

(2) Oinos in the New Testament is an intoxicating beverage for the word for a "winebibber" (i.e. one who drinks wine to an excess) is oinopotes (Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:34). In contrast to John the Baptist, the Lord was accused of being both a glutton and a winebibber (he was neither) because he ate bread and drank wine with sinners (Mt. 9:10; Mt. 11:18-19; Mk. 2:15-16; Lk. 5:29-30; Lk. 7:33-34; Lk. 15:1-2). The obvious contrast between John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus is that John, a Nazarite, lived in the wilderness and neither ate bread nor drank wine (he ate locusts and wild honey, cf. Mt. 3:4; Mk. 1:6), while Christ, a Nazarene (not a Nazarite, but a Nazarene i.e. one from Nazareth), both ate bread and drank wine. And yet the Jewish leaders found fault with both John and Christ. The Lord is simply pointing out to the Jewish leaders that their problem with John and with Him is not one of lifestyle (the lifestyles of John and Jesus were quite different), but rather their problem is with the message John and Jesus brought (the message of John and Jesus was the same). Jesus could hardly have been accused of being a winebibber had he totally abstained from alcoholic beverages as did John.

(3) The same oinos that makes one drunk (Eph. 5:18) was created by Jesus to be served at a wedding feast with full knowledge that it had the capacity to make one drunk (Jn. 2:1-11). After tasting the wine which the Lord had created, the master of the feast told the bridegroom that it was the custom to give the guests "the good wine" first "and when the guests have well drunk" (literally, "when they become drunk") then to give them the inferior wine. The Greek word for "drunk" (Jn. 2:10), methuo is used without exception in the New Testament to refer to one being intoxicated (Mt. 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor. 11:21; 1 Thess. 5:7; Rev. 17:2,6). The Greek word for "drunkard" (methusos , cf. 1 Cor. 5:11; 1 Cor. 6:10) is a form of methuo. One other form of methuo is found in the New Testament, methuskomai (Lk. 12:45; Eph. 5:18; 1 Thess. 5:7), and this word also refers without exception to one being intoxicated. Thus, it is clear that "the good wine" (oinos) which Christ created had the capacity to intoxicate. The master of the feast relates to the bridegroom that the inferior wine was normally saved to last after the guests had consumed "the good wine" and were drunk (by then they would not notice the inferior quality of the wine they were drinking), but in this case "the good wine" (the same oinos that could make one drunk) which Jesus had created was saved and served to the guests last. There is no getting around the fact that "the good wine" which Christ created was "the good wine" which made guests drunk at wedding feasts (Jn. 2:10). Obviously, Christ is not condoning drunkenness, but rather giving His tacit approval for the lawful use of alcoholic beverages even in social contexts.

(4) The same oinos that could intoxicate (Jn. 2:10; Eph. 5:18) was hailed for its medicinal value by an apostle of Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 5:23). This is not a mere suggestion from Paul to Timothy, but a command (literally, "Stop using water any longer, but continuously use a little wine on account of your stomach and your frequent weaknesses."). The inspired Word of the all wise God declares that wine in moderation is not detrimental to one's health, but to the contrary, beneficial to one's health ("Let God be true, but every man a liar" Rom. 3:4).

(5) The same oinos that had the capacity to inebriate (Jn. 2:10; Eph. 5:18) was not forbidden in moderate use to elders or deacons (1 Tim. 3:2,8) The prohibition in 1 Timothy 3:2 is against lingering a long time beside one's wine (paroinos) i.e. lingering because one's glass is repeatedly filled until drunkenness occurs. This is actually a prohibition against drinking much wine not against the moderate use of wine. This is made clear in 1 Timothy 3:8 where the prohibition is against drinking "much wine", not against drinking wine at all.



b. The fruit of the vine (Mt. 26:29; Mk. 14:25; Lk. 22:18)


(1) This phrase does not refer to grape juice any more than does the phrase "the blood of grapes" (in Gen. 49:11 "the blood of grapes" is parallel to yayin i.e. alcoholic wine, and in Deut. 32:14 "the blood of grapes" is parallel to hamer i.e. fermented wine).

(2) If taken quite literally, "the fruit of the vine" would refer to whole grapes, thus the phrase must be used figuratively in some sense.

(3) Dunlop Moore summarizes the distinct Jewish meaning of the phrase as follows:




The expression the "fruit of the vine" is employed by our Saviour in the synoptical Gospels to denote the element contained in the cup of the Holy Supper. The fruit of the vine is literally the grape. But the Jews from time immemorial have used this phrase to designate the wine partaken of on sacred occasions, as at the Passover and on the evening of the Sabbath. The Mishna (De. Bened, cap. 6, pars i) expressly states, that, in pronouncing blessings, "the fruit of the vine" is the consecrated expression for yayin.. . . . The Christian Fathers, as well as the Jewish rabbis, have understood "the fruit of the vine" to mean wine in the proper sense. Our Lord, in instituting the Supper after the Passover, availed himself of the expression invariably employed by his countrymen in speaking of the wine of the Passover. On other occasions, when employing the language of common life, he calls wine by its ordinary name (Cited in The Christian And Alcoholic Beverages by Kenneth L. Gentry, p.55).

(4) Furthermore, the drink offering that was poured out before the Lord at the Passover and on other occasions was wine not grape juice (Num. 28:24; cf. Num. 28:14 where the drink offering is specifically identified as wine, yayin ). It would certainly follow that the Lord used wine at the Passover celebration (and at the institution of the Lord's Supper) with His disciples in Matthew 26:29.

(5) Just as Isaiah can refer to "a vineyard of red wine" (hamer, fermented wine ) in Isaiah 27:2 because fermented wine is derived from the vineyard, in like manner Jesus can can refer to "the fruit of the vine" and yet mean the fermented wine that is derived from the fruit of the vine.

(6) Christ teaches that the "fruit of the vine" signifies "My blood of the new covenant" (Mt. 26:28). Though the phrase, "the blood of grapes" is not used in the Last Supper account, it is difficult to overlook the parallel between the "blood of grapes" and the "blood of the new covenant." Yet "the blood of grapes" is used synonomously for both yayin (alcoholic wine) in Genesis 49:11, and for hamer (fermented wine) in Deuteronomy 32:14.

(7) Melchizedek is a type of Christ (Heb. 7:3) while Abraham is the father of all who believe (Rom. 4:11). Even as Abraham tithed of his increase to Melchizedek, the king of righteousness (Heb. 7::2,4), so do the children of Abraham tithe of their increase to Christ, the King of righteousness (Heb. 7:9-10). Likewise, even as Melchizedek, the priest of God Most High, gave to Abraham bread and wine (yayin ) and then blessed Abraham (Gen. 14:18-19), so does Christ, the Great High Priest of the new covenant, give to the children of Abraham bread and wine at the Lord's Supper and bless them (Mt. 26:26-29).

(8) Finally, one must assume that intoxicating wine was being used to celebrate the Lord's Supper in the church of Corinth for believers were combining the love feast with the Lord's Supper and some were partaking of the Lord's Supper in a drunken state as a result (cf. 1 Cor. 11:21 where the verb metheuo is used i.e. intoxicated). Although wine was clearly abused by the Corinthian believers in conjuction with the Lord's Supper, Paul does not condemn the Corinthian Chirsitans for using wine, nor does he prohibit the use of wine in the Lord's Supper. Paul's correction is directed toward their sinful abuse of wine not their lawful use of it. If wine was not lawfully to be used in the Lord's Supper, here was the ideal time for Paul to demonstrate where the use of wine would lead those who broke God's law by using it in the Lord's Supper. The silence concerning any prohibition of wine in the Lord's Supper at this point is deafening.



c. Sikera (strong drink)


(1) This is one of the intoxicating beverages that John the Baptist was prohibited from drinking (Lk. 1:15). The other intoxicating drink prohibited to John was oinos (wine).



d. Gleukos (new wine)


(1) Gleukos was certainly capable of intoxication for the disciples are accused of being filled with gleukos (new wine) in Acts 2:13. Whereas Peter attributes the behavior of the disciples not to drunkenness (metheuo), but to the Spirit of God (Acts 2:15).



e. Therefore, the words used for wine in the New Testament (oinos, sikera, gleukos) speak of beverages that have the capacity to intoxicate contrary to the view of some who would argue that wine in the New Testament was so diluted with water that it was almost impossible to intoxicate using it, or that the wine of the New Testament was essentially grape juice.



f. There was a Greek word available to the writers of the New Testament which might have been used to refer to grape juice (trux) had they wanted their readers to understand that the common beverage used by Christ, the disciples, Timothy, the elders and deacons, and the Corinthian believers was unfermented grape juice (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament And Other Early Christian Literature , by Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich, p.564). The Holy Spirit of God chose not to use trux (grape juice) even one time in the New Testament. There is therefore no reference in the New Testament to unfermented grape juice, but all references are to fermented wine.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Sean, while some may say wine to mean both wine or grape juice, you can't ignore the fact that people at a wedding would not be drinking grape juice. Paul wouldn't have prescribed Timothy grape juice for his stomach ailments. Unless the grape juice became fermented into wine, it wasn't something that would keep for any length of time, so the preservation process of preserving the grape juice/wine would inevitably result in an alcoholic beverage for the sake of preservation.

To try to use this reasoning to prove your point really takes you to a dead end, imo. Rather it would be better to assume that the wine they drank was preserved for longer periods of time because of the alcohol content, yet no doubt mixed with water, and probably not as strong as the wine drank today.

So, do you think Jesus turning the water into wine, offered rotten, fermented juice to the guests? I wonder what percentage of alcohol it was Jesus made when he made his moonshine?...LOL

It was just good ol fresh grape juice, like delicious fruit punch at a Christian wedding these days.....Jesus would NEVER cause folks to be drunkards, it is against the very passages in the N.T. He and the Apostles spoke about incessantly.

[Sean]

Brother Aquila, you should read this...


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=....74035653,d.cG


And all of you guys for that matter

[shag]

Originally Posted by Carl

The color pink also, is really bad.

...on men. To no doubt match their hidden pink skivvies.
Amen and amen

[Sean]

(3) The same oinos that makes one drunk (Eph. 5:18) was created by Jesus to be served at a wedding feast with full knowledge that it had the capacity to make one drunk (Jn. 2:1-11). After tasting the wine which the Lord had created, the master of the feast told the bridegroom that it was the custom to give the guests "the good wine" first "and when the guests have well drunk" (literally, "when they become drunk") then to give them the inferior wine. The Greek word for "drunk" (Jn. 2:10), methuo is used without exception in the New Testament to refer to one being intoxicated (Mt. 24:49; Acts 2:15; 1 Cor. 11:21; 1 Thess. 5:7; Rev. 17:2,6). The Greek word for "drunkard" (methusos , cf. 1 Cor. 5:11; 1 Cor. 6:10) is a form of methuo. One other form of methuo is found in the New Testament, methuskomai (Lk. 12:45; Eph. 5:18; 1 Thess. 5:7), and this word also refers without exception to one being intoxicated. Thus, it is clear that "the good wine" (oinos) which Christ created had the capacity to intoxicate. The master of the feast relates to the bridegroom that the inferior wine was normally saved to last after the guests had consumed "the good wine" and were drunk (by then they would not notice the inferior quality of the wine they were drinking), but in this case "the good wine" (the same oinos that could make one drunk) which Jesus had created was saved and served to the guests last. There is no getting around the fact that "the good wine" which Christ created was "the good wine" which made guests drunk at wedding feasts (Jn. 2:10). Obviously, Christ is not condoning drunkenness, but rather giving His tacit approval for the lawful use of alcoholic beverages even in social contexts. QUOTE AQUILA



So if this mans logic is fact, these folks that were already buzzin, became toasted on the booze that Jesus made. Then Jesus caused all the guests to sin and become this.....21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother Aquila, you should read this...
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=....74035653,d.cG


And all of you guys for that matter

Same ol' temperament movement propaganda. Unbiblical. The excerpt I provided refutes the notion of prohibition of alcohol in Scripture.

[Aquila]

P.S.

I had married into a Jewish family after high school. I've had my share of Seder wine.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

So if this mans logic is fact, these folks that were already buzzin, became toasted on the booze that Jesus made. Then Jesus caused all the guests to sin and become this.....21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

You're woefully uninformed with the manner and custom concerning wine in NT times and Eastern cultures. They didn't go as overboard as we do in the West my friend. They pace themselves quite well. In fact, throughout Italy and Greece today people drink wine on their lunch breaks at work. It's cultural. They don't drink to get wasted. In fact, when they sense that they have had too much, they typically start eating. This mitigates the onset of drunkenness. It's almost unheard of to consume wine without food in the East and the Mediterranean. This wedding was not only full of wine... but full of food!

[Sean]

Yeah, well 3/4ths of my family are alcoholics...I am standing against that garbage for their sakes!