Modesty as described by the General Youth Division

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I appreciate the intelligence that God gives a goose, and recognize it as such. However, I certainly prefer the counsel of godly people above ANY worldly wisdom.

And apparently I'm not the only one who thinks its wise to "discriminate:"

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psalm 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

I read secular books, watch secular videos, look at secular publications, and I can derive the good and toss out the bad with the best of them. However, if I have a real problem, a real situation, a real hard circumstance in my life that needs tending to, and I'm not sure what to do about it? I will most definitely go to God in prayer first and foremost, and usually to His Word in tandem with that. Third on my list would be to seek godly counsel--from my husband, my mother, my sisters, my pastor, my friends. And last on my list would be from secular sources (if at all), and from people whose opinions might be educated.

Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Psalm 121:2 My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

There is a definite difference between, and yes, a need to "dichotomize" the godly from worldly. Worldly knowledge can be greatly beneficial, and I have no particular bone to pick with it. I just chalk it up as inferior to godly counsel across the board, and rightfully so.

How you define godly people is critical to your premise. Are they those that believe just like you? It could be that the umbrella of God's grace includes more than your little group of fellows. I do have a bone to pick with statements like the bolded. In fact, I believe we had an exchange before, but you didn't seem willing to respond:

YOU: "I'm not completely trusting of worldly counselors, because counselors help people find direction and solutions, and if they don't have a Christian worldview, people will end up being led in a different direction than they should be.

I think it's best to seek out Christian counselors, but I'm not completely opposed to secular counseling. We should be careful whose counsel we hear."

ME: "I would also encourage entering into secular counseling with some level of caution as well. However, wouldn't you agree that the majority of "Christian" counseling has by and large been derived from the research and work of secular psychology?

Also, why stop at psychiatrists/psychologists? Just curious, do you apply the same level of caution when visiting physicians for healthcare or lawyers for legal advice?"

YOU: ___________

I've heard Psalm 1:1 preached like you paint it, but I don't think the writer was talking about natural, secular counseling there. That would be poor exegesis of the Word. But, in the light you present it, Christians must be receiving "inferior" service from doctors and lawyers who don't profess to have the same understanding of God that you do, unless they only do business with doctors and lawyers of like precious faith.

[*AQuietPlace*]

I think it depends upon the nature of the knowledge you are seeking. If you need to know how to change the oil in your car, or replace the transmission, secular knowledge is the best. Go to the most educated car repair person you can find, the books they've written, or the classes they teach, and you will get the best knowledge available. It does not matter whether or not they are a Christian.

But, if you're dealing with a cheating spouse, a godly counselor is best. Someone who values the laws of God. The very best secular counselor might tell you to leave immediately. A godly counselor might tell you to try forgiveness first. (I know that's broad-brush, but it's just a small example of why godly counsel is valuable to a Christian, and why secular counsel might not always be best in some situations.)

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

Also, why stop at psychiatrists/psychologists? Just curious, do you apply the same level of caution when visiting physicians for healthcare or lawyers for legal advice[/I]?"

YOU: ___________

I've heard Psalm 1:1 preached like you paint it, but I don't think the writer was talking about natural, secular counseling there. That would be poor exegesis of the Word. But, in the light you present it, Christians must be receiving "inferior" service from doctors and lawyers who don't profess to have the same understanding of God that you do, unless they only do business with doctors and lawyers of like precious faith.

I would place legal advice and health advice in a much lower category of longterm importance than spiritual matters. Like AQP pointed out, it matters what kind of information that you're seeking. However, in some less spiritual matters, it still can matter whether or not the advisor frames his views around an awareness of God. Science is a perfect example--many scientists are quite intelligent, but they approach the world with the preconceived idea that there was no divine intervention, therefore they will undoubtedly reach some incorrect (and often far-fetched) conclusions about how everything arrived.

I guess I would say that "world-view" is important, and more often than not. We're not really disagreeing on this as much as it might seem--I'm not opposed to secular sources, and you're not opposed to seeking an answer from God and/or His Word. Your comments just seem a little too glib to me sometimes, and it gives rise to some knee-jerk reactions.

Bottom line: God is to be thanked for all knowledge and wisdom, even when the people who possess it don't do so. When I'm in need of serious counsel, I'm going to go to someone who also looks to God as the source of wisdom, but I won't discount the fact that He could speak to me from anywhere.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

And a godly person will not necessarily be academically bereft. As a matter of fact, as stewards over what God has given us, a godly person will seize the opportunity to learn, delight in the learning, and glorify God by the learning.

It is a mistake to assume there is an ultimatum: ignorance or godliness.

I'm big on education--that's why I'm homeschooling my children. I want them to have the best education, and the best preparation for college. Education is key to success in our [any?] society, so if you want your children to succeed, you have to equip them with knowledge. (And usually matching degrees)

I also recognize that education will only half-equip a person; you don't develop your spiritual side as a direct result of attending college classes--not usually, anyway.

And IF I have to weigh one against the other, obviously spiritual development is more valuable. My Grandpa only graduated from the 8th grade, but I would rather have his prayers and advice on just about any matter than many accomplished, educated people that I can think of.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think it depends upon the nature of the knowledge you are seeking. If you need to know how to change the oil in your car, or replace the transmission, secular knowledge is the best. Go to the most educated car repair person you can find, the books they've written, or the classes they teach, and you will get the best knowledge available. It does not matter whether or not they are a Christian.

But, if you're dealing with a cheating spouse, a godly counselor is best. Someone who values the laws of God. The very best secular counselor might tell you to leave immediately. A godly counselor might tell you to try forgiveness first. (I know that's broad-brush, but it's just a small example of why godly counsel is valuable to a Christian, and why secular counsel might not always be best in some situations.)

[Jeffrey]

MB, I get what your saying.

Thankfully, it's not a real-life either/or scenario. There are hundreds of thousands of educated godly men and women.

A complete person -- body, soul/spirit is fully developed. Our body and brains are connected to a unitary constitution of what it means to be mankind. I would wage that though your Grandpa has only an 8th grade graduation, he is truly smart and wise -- and lack of education for his generation is not uncommon. For ours it is. A 25-year old telling me that he is spiritual but did not graduate from High School, has no job and can't read or write (nor is making that effort) losing credibility to me as a person I can trust and go to, even if he prays 23 of the 24 hours in a day. These people have an imbalance, and show their spirituality by their fruit.

That said, yes, Dr. Richard Dawkins, wouldn't have much to add to my life in spiritual ways, or even with a godly perspective. This is what AQP's post touched on above.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I think it depends upon the nature of the knowledge you are seeking. If you need to know how to change the oil in your car, or replace the transmission, secular knowledge is the best. Go to the most educated car repair person you can find, the books they've written, or the classes they teach, and you will get the best knowledge available. It does not matter whether or not they are a Christian.

I can't agree with you here. The automobile repair and service company that we use is Christian based. I don't have to worry about them trying to add on other things I may need to check or replace to pad their pocket book. If they tell me this module is what needs to be replaced, that's what it is. So, I think having even a Christian automotive service is a plus. It would matter to me a great deal.

But, if you're dealing with a cheating spouse, a godly counselor is best. Someone who values the laws of God. The very best secular counselor might tell you to leave immediately. A godly counselor might tell you to try forgiveness first. (I know that's broad-brush, but it's just a small example of why godly counsel is valuable to a Christian, and why secular counsel might not always be best in some situations.)

Agree with you here.

[D. Wright]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I can't agree with you here. The automobile repair and service company that we use is Christian based. I don't have to worry about them trying to add on other things I may need to check or replace to pad their pocket book. If they tell me this module is what needs to be replaced, that's what it is. So, I think having even a Christian automotive service is a plus. It would matter to me a great deal.

In theory, Sis. PO, but not a guarantee.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by D. Wright

In theory, Sis. PO, but not a guarantee.

I think if you know the people personally, it is a guarantee. We've been using them for years and they are always honest and reliable. I wouldn't trust the Ford dealership as much as our local guy.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I can't agree with you here. The automobile repair and service company that we use is Christian based. I don't have to worry about them trying to add on other things I may need to check or replace to pad their pocket book. If they tell me this module is what needs to be replaced, that's what it is. So, I think having even a Christian automotive service is a plus. It would matter to me a great deal.

But I didn't say if you want your car repaired. I said, if you want to learn auto mechanics yourself. If I want to learn auto mechanics, I will go to the best auto mechanics school, and I won't first check out their spirituality credentials. I just want to know how well they know how to fix cars.


(and just as a matter of record, the best auto mechanic we ever had was very much a non-Christian, but he was honest, always was very truthful with us, and never over-charged us. We trusted him completely. He unfortunately dropped dead of a heart attack last year. We had in the past taken our car to a mechanic who was a Christian, and well..... we didn't have such pleasant results, unfortunately.)