You Be The Judge: Afp1996 vs Jason

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Falla39

[/B]

1Cor.10:1,2,11 KJV

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,

2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Amen! That's Bible!

[mfblume]

"You are correct in that the OT did not envision the catching away..."

Brother Steve Epley

"I agree perfectly..."

Brother Michael Blume

Why would the Apostles teach a doctrine that was not found in their Bible, the Torah?

You folks who claim there are no new revelation sin the New Testament that are not found int he old are dead wrong.

The New Testament teaches revelations not ever before revealed to anyone. I am amazed we are being asked this.

If there are no revelations revealed in the New Testament, not contained in the Old, then these passages should be rent from our bibles:

The entire point Paul makes as follows totally proves that there are Revelations given in the New testament that were not even spoken about before, let alone understood. Many revelations were already spoken in OT times as Bro Burk said, but not understood then. However, that is entirely a different issue from SOME NT revelations that were not even spoken before.

1 Corinthians 2:6-12 KJV (6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Paul stated that never before the New Testament times were the revelations given that he called the deep things of God. He said that before the Spirit revealed them to New Testament apostles, they were not seen by eyes, not heard by ears, and never entered men's hearts. What era was he referring to? Every age before the church age.

God did not reveal them to the old testament prophets and men, only to the New Testament apostles and prophets.

1 Cor 2 disproves your idea.

Ephesians 1:9 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, (2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Paul said the idea of gentiles being in the same body as Jews was a mystery not revealed to any person before the New Testament era when the apostles and prophets received them. NOW means the New testament era.

Colossians 1:25-27 KJV Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Mark 4:11 KJV And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The entire concept of the KINGDOM is a mystery, even futurists cannot get yet, that was not known in OT times.

Any time a MYSTERY was mentioned in the New Testament it is referring to something hidden and veiled. REVELATION means UNVEILING. Paul said the concept of ONE BODY for Jews and Gentiles was a mystery. the OT only referred to light for gentiles, but said nothing about putting both peoples into one body.

continued

[mfblume]

Paul said the entire concept of the change of body due to kingdom inheritance was a MYSTERY.

1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Paul revealed to them a mystery not known by anybody beforehand. it was the fact that not all would die but all would be changed. He introduced a former mystery to the saints that was never before revealed to man.

And to say that mikvah immersions are the same thing as water baptism is not true. Water Baptism causes God to do a circumcision of the heart, and actually puts us into the death of Jesus Christ (Ro 6:3; Col 2:11-12). No baptism done before the New Testament baptism in Jesus' name ever did anything close to that. We are considered to have died with Jesus when we are baptized into His death. We become united to Jesus' Christ in baptism into His death, so we can say we're buried, resurrected and seated with Him in heavenly places, all beginning with baptism into Him.

John's baptism was not anything like the Old Testament mikvahs. In the Old Testament you joined the Israelite nation by immersion, plus circumcision for males. And you change your way of lifestyle to that of Law. But water baptism by John was a radical repentance of cutting down the entire tree at the roots, as opposed to trimming the hedges and branches in any old covenant mikvah, which is why John said the axe is laid to the root of the tree.

New Testament baptism is simply part of new creationhood, whereas you were not a new creature in the old covenant. Mikvah was a shadow compared to the body of baptism.

Jesus said that nobody before His day saw the things He was showing them.

Matthew 13:17 KJV For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Paul spoke of a revelation of a mystery that was kept secret since the world began until he and others in the NT era received these revelations.

Romans 16:25 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

So, Paul taught things that ere not found in Torah because God concealed these things until the times of the New Testament. they were kept as mysteries until the New Testament age when God would reveal them to us by His Spirit. I cannot know your mind unless I have your spirit in me, which is impossible. Only your spirit knows the things about you. Even so, God's Spirit alone held these things, but the difference is that We are given His Spirit so that we might know the things of God.

Something UNSPOKEN was the mystery of not all dying but all changing. And this was the original question AFP put in his signature.

1 Corinthians 15:51 BBE (51) See, I am giving you the revelation of a secret: we will not all come to the sleep of death, but we will all be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ISV (51) Let me tell you a secret. Not all of us will die, but all of us will be changed-

1 Corinthians 15:51 GNB (51) Listen to this secret truth: we shall not all die, but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant, as quickly as the blinking of an eye. For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed.

Clarke

1Co 15:51
I show you a mystery - That is, a thing which you have never known before. But what is this mystery? Why, that we shall not all sleep; we shall not all die; but we shall all be changed: of this the Jews had not distinct notions. For, as flesh and blood cannot inherit glory, and all shall not be found dead at the day of judgment, then all must be changed - undergo such a change that their bodies may become spiritual, like the bodies of those who shall be raised from the dead.

barnes

A mystery - On the meaning of this word, see the note on 1Co_2:7. The word here does not mean anything which was in its nature unintelligible, but that which to them had been hitherto unknown. “I now communicate to you a truth which has not been brought into the discussion, and in regard to which no communication has been made to you.” On this subject there had been no revelation. Though the Pharisees held that the dead would rise, yet they do not seem to have made any statement in regard to the living who should remain when the dead should rise. Nor, perhaps, had the subject occupied the attention of the apostles; nor had there been any direct communication on it from the Lord Jesus himself. Paul then here says, that he was about to communicate a great truth which till then had been unknown, and to resolve a great inquiry on which there had as yet been no revelation.

Gilll

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery,.... Or a secret, which could never have been discovered by reason, or the light of nature, and what is of pure revelation; and which perhaps the apostle became acquainted with, when he was caught up into the third heaven; and is what is never made mention of by any prophet, or apostle, but himself: he prefaces the account of it in this manner, partly to show the great respect he had for these Corinthians, that he treated them as his bosom friends, to whom he communicated his secrets; and partly to excite their curiosity and attention:

Wesley

1Co 15:51 A mystery - A truth hitherto unknown; and not yet fully known to any of the sons of men.

The plain reading of that passage indicates the "change" aspect of the resurrection was never before revealed to anyone.

[mfblume]

People often abuse the principles of types and shadows.

There are many TYPES AND SHADOWS of revelations in the New Testament in every case, I believe. When they are seen they do not conflict with what the New Testament states, but they explicitly mirror what the New Testament plainly states.

Saying baptism in cloud and sea represents as a shadow the Baptism of Spirit and Water is not a revelation that was revealed in the Old Testament just because Moses went through the could an sea. No one in the OT era had a clue that Spirit baptism would ever occur in the way it does today and involve all it involves today.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You folks who claim there are no new revelation sin the New Testament that are not found int he old are dead wrong.

The New Testament teaches revelations not ever before revealed to anyone. I am amazed we are being asked this.

If there are no revelations revealed in the New Testament, not contained in the Old, then these passages should be rent from our bibles:

The entire point Paul makes as follows totally proves that there are Revelations given in the New testament that were not even spoken about before, let alone understood. Many revelations were already spoken in OT times as Bro Burk said, but not understood then. However, that is entirely a different issue from SOME NT revelations that were not even spoken before.

1 Corinthians 2:6-12 KJV (6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Paul stated that never before the New Testament times were the revelations given that he called the deep things of God. He said that before the Spirit revealed them to New Testament apostles, they were not seen by eyes, not heard by ears, and never entered men's hearts. What era was he referring to? Every age before the church age.

God did not reveal them to the old testament prophets and men, only to the New Testament apostles and prophets.

1 Cor 2 disproves your idea.

Ephesians 1:9 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, (2) If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: (3) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (5) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (6) That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Paul said the idea of gentiles being in the same body as Jews was a mystery not revealed to any person before the New Testament era when the apostles and prophets received them. NOW means the New testament era.

Colossians 1:25-27 KJV Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; (26) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Mark 4:11 KJV And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The entire concept of the KINGDOM is a mystery, even futurists cannot get yet, that was not known in OT times.

Any time a MYSTERY was mentioned in the New Testament it is referring to something hidden and veiled. REVELATION means UNVEILING. Paul said the concept of ONE BODY for Jews and Gentiles was a mystery. the OT only referred to light for gentiles, but said nothing about putting both peoples into one body.

continued

The overall concept is true just a bone or two I had to spit out. There are more than ONe mystery only revealed to NT Apostles.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul said the entire concept of the change of body due to kingdom inheritance was a MYSTERY.

1 Corinthians 15:51 KJV (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Paul revealed to them a mystery not known by anybody beforehand. it was the fact that not all would die but all would be changed. He introduced a former mystery to the saints that was never before revealed to man.

And to say that mikvah immersions are the same thing as water baptism is not true. Water Baptism causes God to do a circumcision of the heart, and actually puts us into the death of Jesus Christ (Ro 6:3; Col 2:11-12). No baptism done before the New Testament baptism in Jesus' name ever did anything close to that. We are considered to have died with Jesus when we are baptized into His death. We become united to Jesus' Christ in baptism into His death, so we can say we're buried, resurrected and seated with Him in heavenly places, all beginning with baptism into Him.

John's baptism was not anything like the Old Testament mikvahs. In the Old Testament you joined the Israelite nation by immersion, plus circumcision for males. And you change your way of lifestyle to that of Law. But water baptism by John was a radical repentance of cutting down the entire tree at the roots, as opposed to trimming the hedges and branches in any old covenant mikvah, which is why John said the axe is laid to the root of the tree.

New Testament baptism is simply part of new creationhood, whereas you were not a new creature in the old covenant. Mikvah was a shadow compared to the body of baptism.

Jesus said that nobody before His day saw the things He was showing them.

Matthew 13:17 KJV For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Paul spoke of a revelation of a mystery that was kept secret since the world began until he and others in the NT era received these revelations.

Romans 16:25 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

So, Paul taught things that ere not found in Torah because God concealed these things until the times of the New Testament. they were kept as mysteries until the New Testament age when God would reveal them to us by His Spirit. I cannot know your mind unless I have your spirit in me, which is impossible. Only your spirit knows the things about you. Even so, God's Spirit alone held these things, but the difference is that We are given His Spirit so that we might know the things of God.

Something UNSPOKEN was the mystery of not all dying but all changing. And this was the original question AFP put in his signature.

1 Corinthians 15:51 BBE (51) See, I am giving you the revelation of a secret: we will not all come to the sleep of death, but we will all be changed.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ISV (51) Let me tell you a secret. Not all of us will die, but all of us will be changed-

1 Corinthians 15:51 GNB (51) Listen to this secret truth: we shall not all die, but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant, as quickly as the blinking of an eye. For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed.

Clarke

1Co 15:51
I show you a mystery - That is, a thing which you have never known before. But what is this mystery? Why, that we shall not all sleep; we shall not all die; but we shall all be changed: of this the Jews had not distinct notions. For, as flesh and blood cannot inherit glory, and all shall not be found dead at the day of judgment, then all must be changed - undergo such a change that their bodies may become spiritual, like the bodies of those who shall be raised from the dead.

barnes

A mystery - On the meaning of this word, see the note on 1Co_2:7. The word here does not mean anything which was in its nature unintelligible, but that which to them had been hitherto unknown. “I now communicate to you a truth which has not been brought into the discussion, and in regard to which no communication has been made to you.” On this subject there had been no revelation. Though the Pharisees held that the dead would rise, yet they do not seem to have made any statement in regard to the living who should remain when the dead should rise. Nor, perhaps, had the subject occupied the attention of the apostles; nor had there been any direct communication on it from the Lord Jesus himself. Paul then here says, that he was about to communicate a great truth which till then had been unknown, and to resolve a great inquiry on which there had as yet been no revelation.

Gilll

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery,.... Or a secret, which could never have been discovered by reason, or the light of nature, and what is of pure revelation; and which perhaps the apostle became acquainted with, when he was caught up into the third heaven; and is what is never made mention of by any prophet, or apostle, but himself: he prefaces the account of it in this manner, partly to show the great respect he had for these Corinthians, that he treated them as his bosom friends, to whom he communicated his secrets; and partly to excite their curiosity and attention:

Wesley

1Co 15:51 A mystery - A truth hitherto unknown; and not yet fully known to any of the sons of men.

The plain reading of that passage indicates the "change" aspect of the resurrection was never before revealed to anyone.

Again very good.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

People often abuse the principles of types and shadows.

There are many TYPES AND SHADOWS of revelations in the New Testament in every case, I believe. When they are seen they do not conflict with what the New Testament states, but they explicitly mirror what the New Testament plainly states.

Saying baptism in cloud and sea represents as a shadow the Baptism of Spirit and Water is not a revelation that was revealed in the Old Testament just because Moses went through the could an sea. No one in the OT era had a clue that Spirit baptism would ever occur in the way it does today and involve all it involves today.

True through NT revelation we can see the message preached in tpes and shadows however they did not understand them. Thus a mystery to them a revelation to us.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by mfblume

People often abuse the principles of types and shadows.

There are many TYPES AND SHADOWS of revelations in the New Testament in every case, I believe. When they are seen they do not conflict with what the New Testament states, but they explicitly mirror what the New Testament plainly states.

Saying baptism in cloud and sea represents as a shadow the Baptism of Spirit and Water is not a revelation that was revealed in the Old Testament just because Moses went through the could an sea. No one in the OT era had a clue that Spirit baptism would ever occur in the way it does today and involve all it involves today.

Bro. Blume,

Bro. Epley said " NO ONE was baptized in water in the OT. Good grief.[/QUOTE]

They were baptized whether they knew what was happening or not!

1Cor.10:1,2,11 KJV

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,

2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Falla39

[shag]

If I understand the post below, AFP's are not contending the idea of NT revelation-mysteries revealled, which were illuded to, but not understood in the OT.

But rather contending any NT revelations that are not at all written or illuded to anywhere in the OT.

namely, the rapture.

Am i understanding you correctly, AFP's?


[QUOTE=afp1996;751236] Revelation is the revealing of something that is already there. You cannot reveal something that is not already there to be revealed.





Concerning baptism, isnt the dispute, to be comparing between the old covenant and revelations in the new covenant, - pre-cross (O.C.)verses post cross(N.C. church age), whereas John the baptist baptised in the old covenant, so no big new covenant revelation concerning baptism anyway(excluding the words spoken). Maybe I'm missing something here???

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Bro. Blume,

Bro. Epley said " NO ONE was baptized in water in the OT. Good grief.

They were baptized whether they knew what was happening or not!

1Cor.10:1,2,11 KJV

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,

2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Falla39[/QUOTE]

They were NOT actually baptized Paul was using this as a type. They were NOT immersed in water. The baptized the Egyptians NOT them.