Does no one accept responsibility any more?

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

I can see your points. But don't loose the point that Christ was attacking those who were extorting and oppressing an already poor and oppressed people. Christ was defending the weak and helpless...not telling them to wipe their noses and get a job.

As I would as well. It is completely different to defend the weak, oppressed and poor than it is to continue to support those who sit on their bums and do nothing but watch cable, talk on their cell phones, buy cigs and booze and continue to have kids they cannot afford or want to take care of. It is NOT my responsibility to care of them. It is also not my responsibility to take care of someone for a bad business decision they made....especially in corporate America. If the airline industry goes "down" someone else will raise it up and do better. A free market is always the best system. It allows the cream to rise to the top and when it sours, it gets thrown out.

I guess you could kinda say that I took some whips and shoved at you for such harsh words, especially in light of how many people are really hurting and need a little help. For example you made people turning to the government over predatory lending practices sound like whiners. Bro...government has historically protected consumers and citizens from these schemes of extortion. The government has largely turned a blind eye to rampant abuses and shady international investment schemes using these high risk mortgages...and billions of dollars have been lost because of it. You and I have even suffered...most likely your home dropped in value. You should be mad as hades asking why regulators didn't sound an alarm on the issue. In addition you should be wondering why so many lenders set a bottom line on loans to issue...even if the applicants were clearly unqualified. There is so much to this we could talk about it all night. Anyway...we should be drawing up our whips and driving out these extortionists.

My words to those who rolled the "bones" and took a HUGE chance in the mortgage deal would still be the same . YOU signed the contract. If you didn't read it, shame on you. It's not my fault. Some years ago I took out an insurance policy, based upon a Christian Financial Adivsor's advice. I trusted him and didn't read the contract as I should have. Short story is that it cost me $10K in the blink of an eye. Was I ticked? You bet!! He didn't fully disclose what the deal was. However, it was my fault for not reading the contract. It was my decision not to do so and I paid dearly for it. I did not ask the government to give me my 10 grand back. I took my lumps and learned a great lesson. I am still responsible and don't expect someone to help me for my own stupidity. I teach my kids responsibility. Once again, personal responsibility is a BIBLICAL principle that cannot be gotten around.

I feel bad for those who got bit in their mortgages, but it wasn't like they didn't know they were taking a risk on the market. If you know your payment is going to go up, then you can either afford it or you get out of it....it's not that difficult. If you didn't read the contract, shame on you and shame on me. Once again, my choice and my consequence. No different than going to a casino. If you want to keep your money, don't go there. Most people understand the risk/reward ratio and if they don't, they'll learn quickly. But it's still not my job nor the government's to bail them out while they make bad decisions. I don't want to lose everything, so I'm going to be careful in my decisions. That, once again, is personal responsibility.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

My words to those who rolled the "bones" and took a HUGE chance in the mortgage deal would still be the same . YOU signed the contract. If you didn't read it, shame on you. It's not my fault. Some years ago I took out an insurance policy, based upon a Christian Financial Adivsor's advice. I trusted him and didn't read the contract as I should have. Short story is that it cost me $10K in the blink of an eye. Was I ticked? You bet!! He didn't fully disclose what the deal was. However, it was my fault for not reading the contract. It was my decision not to do so and I paid dearly for it. I did not ask the government to give me my 10 grand back. I took my lumps and learned a great lesson. I am still responsible and don't expect someone to help me for my own stupidity. I teach my kids responsibility. Once again, personal responsibility is a BIBLICAL principle that cannot be gotten around.

I feel bad for those who got bit in their mortgages, but it wasn't like they didn't know they were taking a risk on the market. If you know your payment is going to go up, then you can either afford it or you get out of it....it's not that difficult. If you didn't read the contract, shame on you and shame on me. Once again, my choice and my consequence. No different than going to a casino. If you want to keep your money, don't go there. Most people understand the risk/reward ratio and if they don't, they'll learn quickly. But it's still not my job nor the government's to bail them out while they make bad decisions. I don't want to lose everything, so I'm going to be careful in my decisions. That, once again, is personal responsibility.

People who are experts in real estate have trouble reading and deciphering some of these mortgage loan docs, MOW. Experts, MOW. For starters, ya practically have to have a degree in legal terminology just to understand all the legal terms used. Then, you almost have to have a panel of judges to interpret what it all means on a practical level.

[Cindy]

MOW you mean you are for personal accountability? That's not very popular. Neither is accepting consequences for your actions. The sad part is some parents teach this to their children, so they believe they can do anything they please without consequences.
And then they always want to blame someone else for it. Like the government, anyone but themselves.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Rico

People who are experts in real estate have trouble reading and deciphering some of these mortgage loan docs, MOW. Experts, MOW. For starters, ya practically have to have a degree in legal terminology just to understand all the legal terms used. Then, you almost have to have a panel of judges to interpret what it all means on a practical level.

Once again, personal responsibility.....if you don't understand it, then don't do it. Don't assume it will be OK. If something is too complicated for me to understand, I avoid it. As the old adage states, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't."

[Rico]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Once again, personal responsibility.....if you don't understand it, then don't do it. Don't assume it will be OK. If something is too complicated for me to understand, I avoid it. As the old adage states, "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't."

Wow. I am awed at your brilliance and superior intelligence. You mean to tell me you have NEVER trusted the word of someone you bought something from? You've read and understood every single line and term of every contract you have every signed? Surely, God must be with thee.

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

My words to those who rolled the "bones" and took a HUGE chance in the mortgage deal would still be the same . YOU signed the contract. If you didn't read it, shame on you. It's not my fault. Some years ago I took out an insurance policy, based upon a Christian Financial Adivsor's advice. I trusted him and didn't read the contract as I should have. Short story is that it cost me $10K in the blink of an eye. Was I ticked? You bet!! He didn't fully disclose what the deal was. However, it was my fault for not reading the contract. It was my decision not to do so and I paid dearly for it. I did not ask the government to give me my 10 grand back. I took my lumps and learned a great lesson. I am still responsible and don't expect someone to help me for my own stupidity. I teach my kids responsibility. Once again, personal responsibility is a BIBLICAL principle that cannot be gotten around.

In other words you rolled over for a guy who purposefully didn’t give you full disclosure. He left it up to you…and most folks in the industry have to go to school and be tested and certified to do these things…and you and little old ladies are to blame if they rip you off. That’s stupid bro. In the name of a free market there should be full disclosure. MOW, you’re not to blame when you were targeted for a swindle. Yes, you might have caught it IF you were as on your game if they were. But most average people aren’t, these people know it, and that’s why they work scams and schemes like this.

You’re really big on that “personal responsibility” stuff…but you’re neglecting something very important because you’ve been socially conditioned to just “take it” and even defend the offenders. “Personal responsibility” is a TWO WAY STREET. Yes, you have a personal responsibility to make sure you understand what you’re getting into, however those in business have a personal responsibility to offer full disclosure and reveal all risks. Don’t you know that the banking industry knew the markets would take the turn that they did? That’s why they really pushed the variable rate mortgage stuff bro. There was a book written about 5 years ago about what he called, “the coming mortgage crisis”. The industry acts like they didn’t know what they were doing to these people but they did. Now, they don’t want to take personal responsibility for corrupt business deals.

You mentioned the Bible MOW…you know…the Bible lays quite a bit of burden on personal responsibility to be just in business…it’s not all on the consumer like you’ve been socially conditioned to think. We'll just look at a couple things here and expand as the conversation progresses...

Excessive interest was forbidden by the Law of God:

Exodus 22:25
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.

Restitution for usury is illustrated as a way of the just:

Proverbs 28:8
He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.

This speaks of a person who charged unjust and excessive interest being brought up before the judges who will take from the usurer and return funds stolen by usury to the poor who was swindled.

The Bible doesn’t put all the responsibility on the consumer MOW…it also places moral and social responsibility upon the provider of services. It’s called JUSTICE. Injustices are issued restitution. That’s called….JUSTICE. Who is the agent of justice? The GOVERNMENT. In Israel’s day it was the Judges and then the magistrates. Today it’s the courts and public officials.

I feel bad for those who got bit in their mortgages, but it wasn't like they didn't know they were taking a risk on the market. If you know your payment is going to go up, then you can either afford it or you get out of it....it's not that difficult. If you didn't read the contract, shame on you and shame on me. Once again, my choice and my consequence. No different than going to a casino. If you want to keep your money, don't go there. Most people understand the risk/reward ratio and if they don't, they'll learn quickly. But it's still not my job nor the government's to bail them out while they make bad decisions. I don't want to lose everything, so I'm going to be careful in my decisions. That, once again, is personal responsibility.

A casino expects you to bring your play money to play with. If you use money you should have saved, that’s entirely on you. However, the mortgage industry set a floor on how many approvals they could make, forcing agents to approve millions of people who shouldn’t have qualified. The mortgage industry can forecast the probability of payment based on rates. In myriads of cases the companies knew the people would get wiped out if they signed the mortgage. But they never told the borrower the probability of them being wiped out. They didn’t care. They wanted these mortgages to sell on the international markets for profit. Brother…the Bible isn’t the defender of the usurer or the swindler. It demands justice and fair practices from ALL of society both business and consumer. Injustice in business is an abomination before God. Weights and balances were used in business. Notice what the Lord says….

Proverbs 11:1
A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

God doesn’t blame the consumer that got ripped of by a man using an unjust weight because the consumer didn’t know better…God condemns the wickedness of the business man using unjust weights!

Bro…you’ve been socially conditioned to take whatever the corporate establishment does to you. And you think people are just whining if they stand up and demand justice and restitution. I can only pray that you snap out of it and realize that “responsibility” (both moral and social) is a two way street and isn’t entirely on the consumer.

Under the Law of Moses widows and those harmed by this "unjust weight", especially in the application of usury (excessive interest), could charge the usurer for usury before the magistrate in the gates. And if found to be usury, the usurer could be forced to pay restitution. That's biblical justice.

I suggest you study biblical justice and economics.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

In other words you rolled over for a guy who purposefully didn’t give you full disclosure. He left it up to you…and most folks in the industry have to go to school and be tested and certified to do these things…and you and little old ladies are to blame if they rip you off. That’s stupid bro. In the name of a free market there should be full disclosure. MOW, you’re not to blame when you were targeted for a swindle. Yes, you might have caught it IF you were as on your game if they were. But most average people aren’t, these people know it, and that’s why they work scams and schemes like this.

You’re really big on that “personal responsibility” stuff…but you’re neglecting something very important because you’ve been socially conditioned to just “take it” and even defend the offenders. “Personal responsibility” is a TWO WAY STREET. Yes, you have a personal responsibility to make sure you understand what you’re getting into, however those in business have a personal responsibility to offer full disclosure and reveal all risks. Don’t you know that the banking industry knew the markets would take the turn that they did? That’s why they really pushed the variable rate mortgage stuff bro. There was a book written about 5 years ago about what he called, “the coming mortgage crisis”. The industry acts like they didn’t know what they were doing to these people but they did. Now, they don’t want to take personal responsibility for corrupt business deals.

You mentioned the Bible MOW…you know…the Bible lays quite a bit of burden on personal responsibility to be just in business…it’s not all on the consumer like you’ve been socially conditioned to think. We'll just look at a couple things here and expand as the conversation progresses...

Excessive interest was forbidden by the Law of God:

Exodus 22:25
If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.

Restitution for usury is illustrated as a way of the just:

Proverbs 28:8
He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor.

This speaks of a person who charged unjust and excessive interest being brought up before the judges who will take from the usurer and return funds stolen by usury to the poor who was swindled.

The Bible doesn’t put all the responsibility on the consumer MOW…it also places moral and social responsibility upon the provider of services. It’s called. Injustices are issued restitution. That’s called….JUSTICE. Who is the agent of justice? The GOVERNMENT. In Israel’s day it was the Judges and then the magistrates. Today it’s the courts and public officials.



A casino expects you to bring your play money to play with. If you use money you should have saved, that’s entirely on you. However, the mortgage industry set a floor on how many approvals they could make, forcing agents to approve millions of people who shouldn’t have qualified. The mortgage industry can forecast the probability of payment based on rates. In myriads of cases the companies knew the people would get wiped out if they signed the mortgage. But they never told the borrower the probability of them being wiped out. They didn’t care. They wanted these mortgages to sell on the international markets for profit. Brother…the Bible isn’t the defender of the usurer or the swindler. It demands justice and fair practices from ALL of society both business and consumer. Injustice in business is an abomination before God. Weights and balances were used in business. Notice what the Lord says….

Proverbs 11:1
A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.

God doesn’t blame the consumer that got ripped of by a man using an unjust weight because the consumer didn’t know better…God condemns the wickedness of the business man using unjust weights!

Bro…you’ve been socially conditioned to take whatever the corporate establishment does to you. And you think people are just whining if they stand up and demand justice and restitution. I can only pray that you snap out of it and realize that “responsibility” (both moral and social) is a two way street and isn’t entirely on the consumer.

To clarify, these guys did not try to take advantage of me. They made a bad decision, and I made the worse decision in not doing my homework by fully reading the contract.

I agree that responsibility is a two way street. However, I can't expect the heathen to behave like the godly. They NEVER will. I fully believe in honest business dealings and that the Gov't should try to protect the consumer against scams. That is why I am picky as to who I will deal with. It is sad that we must do that. But the Liberals have gotten our country so far off its righteous base that it is what it is today. To compound it, the church has sat on its hands when it came to sending godly people to serve in our gov't as well. We have gotten what we deserve. If we want it to change, then we need to fill the political "pipeline" with principled men and women who can't be bought or sold.

Society has not conditioned me. I have learned "caveat emptor." The scripture certainly talks about just weights and measures and I am all for that, but there is no way to guarantee that it will happen. If you want a just weight and measure then "caveat emptor." Trust but verify. The gov't CANNOT pass enough legislation to make America and it's fiscal entities righteous, just like churches CANNOT and never will be able to make enough "rules" to insure that people will live holy lives. I should do my best to make sure people get a fair shake, but no one keeps score like the Lord. Two things God gave us for our benefit: #1 a brain & #2 His word. He expects us to use both of them!

[DividedThigh]

grass you are funny, three days later you are still insulting people you dont know and calling them stupid, good night, you need mature little brother, dt

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

To clarify, these guys did not try to take advantage of me. They made a bad decision, and I made the worse decision in not doing my homework by fully reading the contract.

Yep, I see what you're saying...you shoulda’ read the contract. However, when there is predatory lending practices going on due to loopholes in the law that allow it…that’s something to be addressed by government and legislation.

I agree that responsibility is a two way street. However, I can't expect the heathen to behave like the godly. They NEVER will. I fully believe in honest business dealings and that the Gov't should try to protect the consumer against scams. That is why I am picky as to who I will deal with. It is sad that we must do that.

This isn’t about individual morals and behaviors…this is about business transactions and contracts between people and businesses entities corporately charged with the government. Then consider how the FDIC insures so much of the banking industry. All of this is fully within the realm of governmental regulation and oversight.

But the Liberals have gotten our country so far off its righteous base that it is what it is today. To compound it, the church has sat on its hands when it came to sending godly people to serve in our gov't as well. We have gotten what we deserve. If we want it to change, then we need to fill the political "pipeline" with principled men and women who can't be bought or sold.

Liberals? LOL Here’s another example of social conditioning. Classical Christianity during the turn of the century and up through the mid 1900’s would have blamed man’s sinful nature, be he liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican. But today’s rightwing political machine has subverted the Christian worldview in the name of a pseudo “Christian Worldview”, that makes politics paramount in Christian behavior. Sin is no longer the issue or the target…that’s why sin, abuse, extortion, lies, deception, and warmongering are ignored if it’s performed by a Republican. No…the target is…liberals, namely, Democrats. This is part of a massive psychological war the RNC has engaged in to gain psychological control of Christians in the United States. We’re being socially conditioned to think Democrats and Liberals are the problem. They’re not. Sin is the problem. And sin is running rampant even under conservative leadership because it’s not about law or government…it’s about nature. Man is a sinful creature by nature regardless of what button they wear on Election Day or who they vote for. In fact when it comes to politics the real issues are primarily economics, social infrastructure, and defense and no single party has all the answers on those issues. Sometimes the liberals are right and the conservatives are wrong. No one is right 100% of the time.

Society has not conditioned me. I have learned "caveat emptor." The scripture certainly talks about just weights and measures and I am all for that, but there is no way to guarantee that it will happen. If you want a just weight and measure then "caveat emptor." Trust but verify. The gov't CANNOT pass enough legislation to make America and it's fiscal entities righteous, just like churches CANNOT and never will be able to make enough "rules" to insure that people will live holy lives. I should do my best to make sure people get a fair shake, but no one keeps score like the Lord. Two things God gave us for our benefit: #1 a brain & #2 His word. He expects us to use both of them!

Bro, you’re right about a lot of things there. But you’re assuming you can know all the details, often important details are withheld from you. You can think you’ve verified…but find out they knew something you didn’t know. For example…insider trading. You can invest thinking you have all the information and those guys can take you for a ride and you loose your investment. There needs to be strong regulations and oversight that allows for recourse in a court of law should something be found “shady”. And yes, restitution of some degree should be expected. Who’s name is on the dollar bill? Ah…it says, The United States of America. You’re right; government and churches cannot police people’s private lives, choices, partners etc. But government can police its legal tender, contracts, and the systems chartered by said government.

Consider what they're investigating right now...they think speculators are manipulating oil prices. We'll see if that's happening. If it is...the government should act.