KH believes the Light Doctrine??

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

It's ok to go where they preach trinitarian doctrine, but God forbid you sit in a church where they teach clean shaven is right!

While I agree that both are false doctrines, one is foundational, and the error will cause great lose, while the other will not. I can go to heaven without a beard. But i cannot go to heaven believing trinitarian doctrine.

That belief is a departure from the Apostolic faith, don't you think? None of the pioneers of the early 20th century seem to have believed that. And they were the ones who received the revelation.

[Aquila]

Many Apostolics don't even believe proper Oneness doctrine. While Oneness doctrine as we understand it is far more biblical than Trinitarianism...even Oneness doctrine cannot capture or fully define God and his personhood in Christ Jesus. Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
6And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory.

It appears that many of our elders believed that God alone can judge the heart. Clearly Trinitarians see God through a stained glass tradition that isn't expressed in the Bible. But if God chose to save a Trinitarian it would be in spite of this tradition not because of it. Just as God saves many of us in spite of ourselves not because of ourselves.

I have to wonder...was Tyndale, Wesley, Knox, etc. lost? I don't think so. These men were mightily used of God though they didn't have a full revelation of Truth. In a very real way we wouldn't have the truth we have today if it wasn't for men like them who risked everything to teach and protect what light they found in their generation. Instead of condemning what God has done down through the Ages why not realize that God has built upon it. We have Luther, Wycliff, Huss, Tyndale, Knox, Wesley, Whitefield, Parham, Goss, Urshan...all in the same stream of steadily increasing revelation straight from the Word of God, step by precious step. It was spoken of in prophecy:

Isaiah 28:10-1
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Each Reformer brought us a step closer by providing precept upon precept.

While God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy in this age...when Christ returns he will return for a church without spot or wrinkle. That means those Christians who reject full truth will not partake in the Rapture at Christ's coming. We're in a race to save as many as possible and reform as much of the church as possible...before it's too late.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by pelathais

That belief is a departure from the Apostolic faith, don't you think? None of the pioneers of the early 20th century seem to have believed that. And they were the ones who received the revelation.

Is starting 31 churches in 50 years of active ministry. (and they are all that I know still active churches today) considered a pioneer?

Or are you digging deep to justify light doctrine to see someone prior to Arroyo Seco and call THEM pioneers?

[Fiyahstarter]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

It's ok to go where they preach trinitarian doctrine, but God forbid you sit in a church where they teach clean shaven is right!

While I agree that both are false doctrines, one is foundational, and the error will cause great lose, while the other will not. I can go to heaven without a beard. But i cannot go to heaven believing trinitarian doctrine.

It is the SPIRIT under which these doctrines are delivered that bothers me. One is delivered with the Spirit of Condemnation... the other is delivered with the Spirit of Love.

Bro. Sam has LOVE for all believers, even if their doctrine is "imperfect". He will win many more to Christ than those who profess the more "perfect" doctrine, but do so in this Spirit of Condemnation . . . a judgment that should be God's alone.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Is starting 31 churches in 50 years of active ministry. (and they are all that I know still active churches today) considered a pioneer?

There is a difference, and I'm probably at fault for not being more specific. Anyone who has started 31 churches in the course of 50 years is certainly a "pioneer" in the sense of pioneering the Gospel in new areas.

What I meant by "pioneers" was that first generation in the early 20th century. Calling them "founders" doesn't seem accurate because their doctrine was entirely dependant upon ancient documents (the Bible). They may have been innovators in other ways, but they really didn't "start something new" with regard to the Apostolic doctrine.

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Or are you digging deep to justify light doctrine to see someone prior to Arroyo Seco and call THEM pioneers?

You make it sound like I'm desperate to prove something, this "Light Doctrine." I am just observing that the first generation of Oneness Pentecostals did not believe that all Trinitarians were lost, nor were they exclusivistic about baptism in Jesus name and speaking in tongues.

If someone today does take that position, then they have departed from the Apostolic faith of our forebears. They may feel that they have good reasons for doing so. But calling upon their "heritage" would not be a good reason, for their heritage is one of tolerance and openess toward other Christians.

[Nahum]

If the Light Doctrine means that Catholicism, and all of its illegitimate Protestant children, is wrong, then I am all for the "Light Doctrine."

Originally Posted by pelathais

There is a difference, and I'm probably at fault for not being more specific. Anyone who has started 31 churches in the course of 50 years is certainly a "pioneer" in the sense of pioneering the Gospel in new areas.

What I meant by "pioneers" was that first generation in the early 20th century. Calling them "founders" doesn't seem accurate because their doctrine was entirely dependant upon ancient documents (the Bible). They may have been innovators in other ways, but they really didn't "start something new" with regard to the Apostolic doctrine.



You make it sound like I'm desperate to prove something, this "Light Doctrine." I am just observing that the first generation of Oneness Pentecostals did not believe that all Trinitarians were lost, nor were they exclusivistic about baptism in Jesus name and speaking in tongues.

If someone today does take that position, then they have departed from the Apostolic faith of our forebears. They may feel that they have good reasons for doing so. But calling upon their "heritage" would not be a good reason, for their heritage is one of tolerance and openess toward other Christians.

Pel,

Did not some of these whom you identify as forebears actually modify their positions on this matter in their lifetimes? Did not many of them become exclusivistic about baptism in Jesus Name and speaking in tongues? Perhaps they were growing in grace and knowledge as they came to a fuller understanding of God's plan for salvation?

I am asking these questions because I have read that some of these pioneers or forebears did indeed migrate from the position you have described to the one others are castigated for presenting as their heritage.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by pelathais

There is a difference, and I'm probably at fault for not being more specific. Anyone who has started 31 churches in the course of 50 years is certainly a "pioneer" in the sense of pioneering the Gospel in new areas.

What I meant by "pioneers" was that first generation in the early 20th century. Calling them "founders" doesn't seem accurate because their doctrine was entirely dependant upon ancient documents (the Bible). They may have been innovators in other ways, but they really didn't "start something new" with regard to the Apostolic doctrine.



You make it sound like I'm desperate to prove something, this "Light Doctrine." I am just observing that the first generation of Oneness Pentecostals did not believe that all Trinitarians were lost, nor were they exclusivistic about baptism in Jesus name and speaking in tongues.

If someone today does take that position, then they have departed from the Apostolic faith of our forebears. They may feel that they have good reasons for doing so. But calling upon their "heritage" would not be a good reason, for their heritage is one of tolerance and openess toward other Christians.

Again, I knew a man, a pioneer, who thought those that worship 2 idols are not going to be included in the Bride. I agree with this belief.

[Aquila]

Many of those who believe in the Trinity don't see two or three idols. They see a mystery they can't explain. Of course...it's just an illogical tradition and that's why they can't explain it. But in all honesty...we can't fully "explain" Oneness either. God is beyond definition and those of any brand of theology should be very careful not to assume they have a monopoly on understanding the fulness of God's nature and person. I believe in Oneness because it's the most biblical out of the two. But in all honesty...even Oneness cannot explain the fulness of God's glory and person. It's like trying to use a single very bright light bulb to describe the sun. Sure the Trinitarian hears that the sun is so bright and they think it must be three light bulbs on the same lamp...and we read the Scriptures and argue for the idea that the sun is like one great light bulb. We're right...there is only one sun...but even our single light bulb description cannot adequately explain the size, brilliance, power, heat, and majesty of the sun. So also our Oneness theology cannot adequately capture God and all his person and glory. I've yet to truly see the sun...I've felt his warmth. Yes...he's one. I can't describe him. One will have to see the sun and feel it for themselves.

1 Timothy 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
6And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory.

[Raven]

Very good Aquila!
Raven