Pel the things you presented, the Bible presents AS PARABLES. The things were discussing the Bible presents AS EVENTS, big difference.
Really? Just what is the difference? It's not so easy to tell if you just broad brush the whole 1,500 years of the Bible's compilation. You have to do a bit more work than that.
[The stories in Genesis]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo
Did lots wife really turn into a pillar?
Did God really destroy Sodom & Ghommorah with fire?
What we know: The area around "Sodom" (and it is a region and not just one or two cities) is a volcanic rift valley representing the lowest land surface on the globe. There are active vents, geysers and hot springs throughout the region. The presence of large amounts of sulfur are evidence of super heated water having been mixed with magma from the earth's mantle. There are also freshwater springs currently used for agriculture whose source is the Judean hill country to the west.
In answer to your questions: 1) I don't really know, and it's certainly not a doctrinal matter as you appear to want it to be... and 2) Ultimately, yes.
There are ruins of ancient buildings beneath the waters of the present Dead Sea. This gives evidence that the Dead Sea as we have known it is a relatively new fixture in the region. The presence of the famous salt pillars is evidence that the Sea has filled and evaporated down several times within the history of man.
In assigning "blame" or responsibility to God for the destruction of the buildings that we find submerged it's important to understand that all such catastrophes are ultimately an "Act of God." The Jews would even attribute the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians as an "Act of God."
The interactions of the historic characters Abraham and Lot with the events of Genesis 19, do not appear to be at odds with the geologic evidence that there has been no volcanic activity in the area for 4,000 years. The area is still very prone to earthquakes and is an actively expanding Rift Valley.
Abraham predated the Exodus by almost 500 years and the Exodus took place about the 1440's BC - Our year of 2010 minus 4000 = the year 1990 BC. The Yale scholar John Van Seters dates the historical character Abraham within just 10 years of these dates.
The events of Genesis 19 at least appear to fit with the geologic history of the region. Your description of the "Transmutation" of Lot's wife from a carbon based life form to none living halite (rock salt) is a bit problematic. You state that this miraculously happened.
However, human language is such that I think it is not necessary to force our own ideas of the transmutation of chemical elements to accept the Bible's account of her demise at face value. An eyewitness may have seen her covered with silvery ash. Later visitors to the site, failing to find any body, would see the salt pillars. "Mount Sodom" today is 5 miles long, 3 miles wide and 742 feet high. It is made almost entirely of rock salt.
Whatever became of her body, the remains almost certainly are thoroughly encrusted and infused with salt crystals. I see no reason to demand that all believers everywhere accept the idea that her body was miraculously transmuted into halite rock salt.
Do you see the difference in our approaches? You at least appeared to demand that the reader accept the "miraculous" transmutation of elements in your retelling of the story. I just took it for what it said, looked up a little on the geology of the region, and found the geologic history to in fact be in accord with what the Bible had to say all along.
We both started from the same place of belief in the Bible's reliability and truths. We both ended in the same place of faith. You just picked "baggage" along the way of insisting upon a more literal account than what the Bible really intended (IMHO). I think that detracts from the Bible's account.
On the other hand, I too picked up the "baggage." I consulted with geologists for a geologic history of the region and I believe that this actually amplified and gave greater credence to the Bible's account. I then turned to a "modern scholar" and found that the results of his investigation corroborated both the geologic history and the Bible's account.
(I gotta break for a bit... be back after a while)
No one has these tablets for analysis. We are entirely Dependant upon the writer's testimony for the details. The effects of these events was considerable and it is reasonable to infer that something spectacular happened.
This whole issue ends up being a matter of faith. There is certainly no evidence that this DID NOT happen, unlike the matter with the global flood hypothesis of Genesis 6. For that event there are literally "mountains" of evidence that it did not happen. The evidence must be respected and must be used to inform us concerning the things that God has done in this world.
The apparent desire of the writer was to communicate that God did interact with Moses "miraculously" here. We don't really have any other information to elucidate the text. "God gave the Law" to Moses. Even atheists will admit to the fact that at least Moses was probably convinced that this was real.
In everything that's been said here, I think it is imperative that we acknowledge this fact. Before I’m going to say what I’m going to say, please note, I'm not trying to debunk God, His plan for us, nor the absolute Truth about Him. But this is worth considering regarding the Ancient Writings we use to understand our current status in a Relationship that is virtually without a Voice to tell us, yeah, or nay.
If we had an absolute yeah, or nay, we wouldn't be on here trying to figure out the obvious problems and questions that fill the World of Faith(s).
Don't you think we should have eye witnesses that can claim an actual visual of extreme events similar to what the Bible talks about? I don't understand why the Unnatural or Bizarre of God are "Past Tense", and none of these compare to today's current events other than a catastrophe such as earthquakes or hurricanes, and other acts of nature that can be measured.
Example; If Noah or any other past person lived today, and God was ready to do an Act that would defy all reason or natural force, I'll guarantee we would catch it on Video, DVD, Digital Camera, or some other Media source to confirm IT DID HAPPEN.
It seems strange to me that none of these things happen today, in a World where the event can truly be documented and archived as either a Supernatural happening or an Act of Nature.
What could have easily happened in the past are events like the Tsunami that devastated Indonesia, or the earthquake the rocked San Francisco, people began to claim the "God Did" thing just like they do today. When New Orleans was hit by Katrina, Religious people began to put God’s label on it, but people mocked this because we have an honest and broad view of our Planet now, and accountability is far more accurate regarding Nature and her ability to destroy, and rumors or exaggerated stories fall waste to the Truth.
I remember when we studied Eclipses in school. Past civilizations plastered this event with all kind's of Myths, but later were debunked by modern science. Back then, who could argue such Myths.
NFS, I admire your guts to say these things and SOOOO many of us, me for sure, echo your thoughts. I spoke a message a few weeks ago concerning my difficulty with many things we've been taught and it was as if a FLOOD of emotions broke loose (Flood.... ). The general consensus was, "Thank you!!!......Me too!!!". But it drove NO ONE away from God and, in fact, had quite the opposite effect for many. The ability to have an honest discussion about history engages many that wouldn't listen, otherwise.
I think when we shut down statements like yours with the tried-n-true, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it", we shoot our selves in the foot and lose any chance we have with young America, and with educated America. There has to be a reason why 75% of Christians who go to college end up walking away from their faith, and please don't say, "We need more of the power o' God!!" We already have God's power and we're doing nothing with it, evangelistically speaking.
So again, thank you for your thoughts on these subjects and thanks for this thread. It has been worth the AFF membership fee!
Did the walls of Jereicho literally fall down when some people shouted?
Did the sun really stand still in the sky?
My answer short and sweet: I don't know.
There are ancient walls around Jericho that are found in a condition of having "fallen" or been toppled somehow with the exception of the northern section where there were some residences built into the walls themselves. The presence of these residences may have reinforced the integrity of the walls in that area and shored them up when the other sections failed.
Jericho is located at the northern fringe of the Dead Sea valley. As we have already learned, this area is subject to repeated earthquakes.
The American Kathleen Kenyon heralded her finds as being "proof" of the Bible's account. Later teams were not convinced that her dating was accurate (She did have a reputation for a bit of carelessness in this area). The dating is disputed, and that dispute is about the only thing that is agreed upon.
My own beliefs are best summed up with Hebrews 11:30. Again, it's a matter of faith. I really don't have enough here to beat someone over the head with.
The matter of the Sun "standing still" has been used in the past. Some have lied and falsely claimed that NASA had found this "missing day." Why do so many liars want to try and "prove" the Bible?
My conclusion: Again, dunno. The language may certainly have an allegorical application to it. Joshua was merely in need of more time to complete his battle plan. Interfering with the movements of celestial bodies wasn't really what he was after.
It was a fortuitous amount of "more time" that allowed Wellington to complete his maneuver at Waterloo, but no appeal to the miraculous was needed.
Quantum physics, String Theory and quatum vacuum fluctuations deserve their own thread(s). If you find time to read in this area you'll end up feeling like a believer and not an atheist at all. This is where I was torn away from my thoughts of atheism several years back.
I would LOVE to hear more about this. I feel like a little kid in a candy store with all this. You seriously need to start your own Bible School. I'd be the first student. My journey through much of this, but on 1/50th the information, led me into a firm relationship with Christ, much more than the flannelgraph stories did. So the more you have to say about it, the better.
NFS, I admire your guts to say these things and SOOOO many of us, me for sure, echo your thoughts. I spoke a message a few weeks ago concerning my difficulty with many things we've been taught and it was as if a FLOOD of emotions broke loose (Flood.... ). The general consensus was, "Thank you!!!......Me too!!!". But it drove NO ONE away from God and, in fact, had quite the opposite effect for many. The ability to have an honest discussion about history engages many that wouldn't listen, otherwise.
I think when we shut down statements like yours with the tried-n-true, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it", we shoot our selves in the foot and lose any chance we have with young America, and with educated America. There has to be a reason why 75% of Christians who go to college end up walking away from their faith, and please don't say, "We need more of the power o' God!!" We already have God's power and we're doing nothing with it, evangelistically speaking.
So again, thank you for your thoughts on these subjects and thanks for this thread. It has been worth the AFF membership fee!
Thanks, Bro.
When people realize we are open, the possibilities are endless. It's when we "Can" God, the door is shut, and the heart of Faith is poisoned.
Personally, my Faith is powered by evidence. When I take a sincere look into the star lit night, God is bigger than He's ever been to me. When I see the miracle of my human body, I'm left in awe. The crashing waves of the sea can leave me breathless and grateful for a God who gives His children good gifts to behold and experience.
It seems to me, Church has, or can become a dying crutch upon which the victims are the members. We become blind guides, swallowing a camel, and straining at a gnat. All around us is God’s Glory, while superstitions and maybes decay the very fiber of the soul.
I'm sorry to say, my floundering into the unseen has left me more than embarrassed and my duty as a true Christian is stop telling people things that only create a deeper hole of mental torment.
No one has these tablets for analysis. We are entirely Dependant upon the writer's testimony for the details. The effects of these events was considerable and it is reasonable to infer that something spectacular happened.
This whole issue ends up being a matter of faith. There is certainly no evidence that this DID NOT happen, unlike the matter with the global flood hypothesis of Genesis 6. For that event there are literally "mountains" of evidence that it did not happen. The evidence must be respected and must be used to inform us concerning the things that God has done in this world.
The apparent desire of the writer was to communicate that God did interact with Moses "miraculously" here. We don't really have any other information to elucidate the text. "God gave the Law" to Moses. Even atheists will admit to the fact that at least Moses was probably convinced that this was real.
Not sure I've ever noticed this before, but, in Ex 34:1, God says that He will write (again) on the new stone tables, but in 27-28 He seems to have changed His mind. He tells Moses to do the writing. Any thoughts on why?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not sure I've ever noticed this before, but, in Ex 34:1, God says that He will write (again) on the new stone tables, but in 27-28 He seems to have changed His mind. He tells Moses to do the writing. Any thoughts on why?
Hmmm. In Deuteronomy 10, Moses recounts the event, and this time he says God did the writing.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not sure I've ever noticed this before, but, in Ex 34:1, God says that He will write (again) on the new stone tables, but in 27-28 He seems to have changed His mind. He tells Moses to do the writing. Any thoughts on why?
"The LORD" is the subject of the verb "he wrote" in Exodus 34:28.
In verse 27, Moses is told to "write these words" (The Law).
"The LORD" is the subject of the verb "he wrote" in Exodus 34:28.
28 And he (Moses) was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he (Moses) did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he (the Lord? ) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Quote:
In verse 27, Moses is told to "write these words" (The Law).
Which is why 28 really, really seems to be saying Moses is the "he". What am I missing?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
). The general consensus was, "Thank you!!!......Me too!!!". But it drove NO ONE away from God and, in fact, had quite the opposite effect for many. The ability to have an honest discussion about history engages many that wouldn't listen, otherwise.
) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
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