Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[SDG]

or if it puts off you old man into the water????

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Now I know yours was a long post with some really deep things but i got this far and had to stop.....

so getting wet is "works" but saying "God forgive me" is not?

where does one draw the line? it seems to me that no matter how you cut if, if you are going to go with the whole "Works" thing, you loose on the first swing.

Why isnt hearing a work? you have to HEAR the gospel first. hearing is an aciton.

We arent saved by our own works we are saved by God/Jesus/the WORK of Calvary......buuuuuuuut every saved person (even if you believe the presbyterians are saved) has to RESPOND to the gospel or they die lost. ANY responce be it repentance or getting wet, is by your definition of "Works" a...work....

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I responded to this re-run post already ... Ferd ... it's cute when some try to package folks into something they are not ... I'm all for good works ... sorry ... you can take your box ...

Originally Posted by Ferd

sorry buddy, I didnt see it. there were a bunch of very long posts.. I didnt see it, so i figured I would ask again. didnt mean to offend your sensibilities.

can you point me to the answer?

round 3. i checked again. didnt see where you answerd my question. can you point me to, or repost your answer?

Why is repentence not works, but baptism is? somewhere in here somebody has to come to a better understanding of what scripture means by works. (like James and the nekked people)

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I agree ... not an option ...but TB wants more ... he wants you to delve deeper ... into the purpose of baptism ... it wasn't just get wet ... was it ???

He wants to know if it washes away your sins ... if it remits your sins ... ?

and there you have it.... the common ground. we at least have some good basis to understand each other.... but by the way daniel, clearly you want to delve deeper too. isnt that the point of this thread, that you started?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I agree ... not an option ...but TB wants more ... he wants you to delve deeper ... into the purpose of baptism ... it wasn't just get wet ... was it ???

He wants to know if it washes away your sins ... if it remits your sins ... ?

I know what he wants.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I'll just restate what I've said so many times. Water baptism is essential. Not an option. Both Jesus and the apostles commanded it. That was followed up by the apostles practicing it. On the Day of Pentecost all the new believers as far as we can tell anyhow were baptized in the name of Jesus. So were converts after that.

There is no option far as I'm concerned.

That is because you are the real PCI in doctrine...not the new fangled mess that allows for just about anything or nothing.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ferd

round 3. i checked again. didnt see where you answerd my question. can you point me to, or repost your answer?

Why is repentence not works, but baptism is? somewhere in here somebody has to come to a better understanding of what scripture means by works. (like James and the nekked people)

\

Ferd, I do not mean to be surly ... but I will ask you to read my long posts to get your answer to your first question ...

Your second question ... is indeed a NEW ONE ... who said repentance isn't a work ?... all this obfuscating about "Dan doesn't answer questions" or does "rhetorical circling" ... is a silly tactic ... that has no merit .. I have a body of content and scriptural supporting it ... in this thread ... and yet it's simply not the answers you want ...

We don't debate to get the other person to say what we're saying ...

Or to put words in their mouths ....

This thread was never about works being good or bad ... please look at the title of this thread ... it's about when are sins are remitted/forgiven and when we are justified ... my answers, Ferd, have been in that context ....

If you want to win a debate on works being good ... you just did ... if you want to weigh in about what remits our sins or when our sins our remitted ... put on the gloves.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

\

Ferd, I do not mean to be surly ... but I will ask you to read my long posts to get your answer to your first question ...

Your second question ... is indeed a NEW ONE ... who said repentance isn't a work ?... all this obfuscating about "Dan doesn't answer questions" or does "rhetorical circling" ... is a silly tactic ... that has no merit .. I have a body of content and scriptural supporting it ... in this thread ... and yet it's simply not the answers you want ...

We don't debate to get the other person to say what we're saying ...

Or to put words in their mouths ....

This thread was never about works being good or bad ... please look at the title of this thread ... it's about when are sins are remitted/forgiven and when we are justified ... my answers, Ferd, have been in that context ....

If you want to win a debate on works being good ... you just did ... if you want to weigh in about what remits our sins or when our sins our remitted ... put on the gloves.

a couple of points here friend, im not obfuscating or tactically trying to get you to say something.

my questions are simple.

maybe we got off on this tangent of what constitutes works. I dont know. when I droped into this discussion, you were waxing eloquent about baptism and works... you did in fact say that baptism is works and therefore cannot save.

And further, you suggest that repentance IS works? is that what you are saying because that would be new to me....

NO i am not debating works being good. I want to focus just a tad bit on this silly notion that baptism is "works" yet , your view of whatever a person needs to do to be saved is not.

It is important to understand to get to this idea of when remission occurs. so, can we have a few short words on the subject or am I excluded from your discussion because my tactictics are wrong, or because we arent talking about the subject they way you want to?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ferd

That is because you are the real PCI in doctrine...not the new fangled mess that allows for just about anything or nothing.

Originally Posted by Felicity

I'll just restate what I've said so many times. Water baptism is essential. Not an option. Both Jesus and the apostles commanded it. That was followed up by the apostles practicing it. On the Day of Pentecost all the new believers as far as we can tell anyhow were baptized in the name of Jesus. So were converts after that.

There is no option far as I'm concerned.

I believe this too ... Ferd ... DOES THAT MAKE ME REAL PCI ... OLD SCHOOL .... or are ALL NEWBIES COUNTERFEITS???

[Old Paths]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I'll just restate what I've said so many times. Water baptism is essential. Not an option. Both Jesus and the apostles commanded it. That was followed up by the apostles practicing it. On the Day of Pentecost all the new believers as far as we can tell anyhow were baptized in the name of Jesus. So were converts after that.

There is no option far as I'm concerned.

Felicty

If asked to teach a Bible study at your church be allowed/expected to say this to new visitors?

No trick.

J/W

[Felicity]

There is no consensus in regard to what all baptism accomplishes amongst OPs.