Sinless Perfection

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I completely agree.

I don't believe that Jesus came teaching a "brand new" form of the law. I believe Jesus taught the spiritual core of the OT law that had been twisted and contorted into a oppressive Phariseeical monstrosity. A law that was primarily focused on civil violations and civil penalties of a nation. In bringing focus to the spiritual core of the OT law, Jesus made it more personal, and eliminated the need of the OT system, bringing all directly under His own (God's) authority.

Many times Jesus would quote what the Law stated, and would then say, "But I say unto you...", bringing focus to the spiritual core of the Law.

So, Christ's interpretation of the Law's spiritual core trumps its letter, calling us to a higher, inner, and personal holiness.

If your "spiritual core calling us to a higher inner and personal holiness" results in you not actually obeying the commandments of God, then you are just a Pharisee and are outside the kingdom.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If your "spiritual core calling us to a higher inner and personal holiness" results in you not actually obeying the commandments of God, then you are just a Pharisee and are outside the kingdom.

I'm cool, I'm worried about you guys without beards. Lol

No, seriously. Based on what you said so well, we need to know what Commandments are in play or it's all subjective guessing. Because if it's the whole OT Law, then those professing perfection with shaven faces have some growing to do. Lol

[Aquila]

Try to understand me here.

We're told we must be perfect by keeping the law. So, we see unshaved faces and things that are disregarding various laws. So, we ask, which laws must be kept. And, as a result, we're called Pharisees, as those who made the argument to keep the law walk away whistling. Lol

Can anyone be definitive on exactly which laws one must obey so as to not transgress?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here are 50 commands/teachings of Jesus that provide His interpretation of Torah. They are easily kept, and one be sinless, if one has Spirit, loves God, and loves others.

1. Repent—Matthew 4:17, Luke 13:3
2. Let not your heart be troubled—John 14:27,
John 16:33, Matthew 6:25-26, Philippians 4:6-7
3. Follow me—Matthew 4:19
4. Rejoice—Matthew 5:12, (Also 2 Corinthians 6:10,
12:10, James 1:2-4)
5. Let your light shine—Matthew 5:16
6. Honor God’s law—Matthew 5:17-19
7. Be reconciled—Matthew 5:24-25
8. Do not commit adultery—Matthew 5:27-30
9. Keep your word—Matthew 5:33-37
10. Go the second mile—Matthew 5:38-42
11. Love your enemies—Matthew 5:44
12. Be perfect—Matthew 5:48
13. Practice secret disciplines (giving, praying,
fasting)—Matthew 6:1-18
14. Lay up treasures in heaven—Matthew 6:19-21
15. Seek first the kingdom of God—Matthew 6:33
16. Judge not—Matthew 7:1-2
17. Do not throw your pearls to pigs—Matthew 7:6
18. Ask, seek, and knock—Matthew 7:7-8
19. Do unto others—Matthew 7:12
20. Choose the narrow way—Matthew 7:13-14
21. Beware of false prophets—Matthew 7:15
22. Pray for those who spread the word—Matthew
9:37-38
23. Be as shrewd as serpents—Matthew 10:16.
(Also Romans 16:19)
24. Fear God. Do not fear man— Matthew 10:28
(Also Luke 12:4-5)
25. Listen to God’s voice—Matthew 11:15, 13:9,
13:43, Mark 4:23, Luke 14:35, 1 Kings 19:11-13
26.Take my yoke—Matthew 11:29
27. Honor your parents—Matthew 15:4
28. Beware of false teaching—Matthew 16:6, 11-12
29. Deny yourself—Luke 9:23 (Also Matthew 10:38
and Mark 8:34)
30. Do not despise little ones—Matthew 18:10
31. Go to Christians who offend you—Matthew
18:15 (Also Galatians 6:1)
32. Forgive offenders—Matthew 18:21-22 (Also
Proverbs 19:11)
33. Beware of covetousness—Luke 12:15
34. Honor marriage—Matthew 19:6, 19:9
35. Lead by being a servant—Matthew 20:26-28
36. Make the church a house of prayer for all
nations—Mark 11:17
37. Pray in faith—Matthew 21:21-22, John 15:7
38. Bring in the poor—Luke 14:12-14
39. Render unto Caesar—Matthew 22:19-21
40. Love the Lord—Matthew 22:37-38
41. Love your neighbor—Matthew 22:39
42. Be born again—John 3:7
43. Await my return—Matthew 24:42-44
44. Celebrate the Lord’s supper—Matthew 26:26-
27
45. Watch and pray—Matthew 26:41
46. Keep my commandments—John 14:15
47. Feed my sheep—John 21:15-16
48. Make and baptize disciples—Matthew 28:19
49. Teach disciples to obey—Matthew 28:20
50. Receive God’s power—Luke 24:49

Number 6 is where many disagree. Is God's law the 10? Or is it the entire Law of Moses? Or is it God's Law as interpreted strictly through these commands of Christ?

I'm just looking for clarity on your perspective.

OK, since you wanted to bring up that the OT teaches that all men MUST grow beards. Then I'll ask you to show all the above in the Old Testament.
Beards aren't mandertory, neither is stoning your unfaithful wife, or taking an unfaithful wife back. We have not one word telling males to grow a beard in the law. If you were to grow one then you needed to not cut the corners. Simple. Chris, for someone who claims to have been in church for X amount of years, it seems to me you were sleeping somewhere under the pew.


Chris, go find an Apostolic Church, and a good Apostolic pastor.

Stop finding excuses, and I'm pleading with you, that this forum isn't helping you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

OK, since you wanted to bring up that the OT teaches that all men MUST grow beards. Then I'll ask you to show all the above in the Old Testament.

Not everything that Jesus taught can be found in the Law of Moses. And even the teachings or commandments that can be found in the Law of Moses are taken to a new level, for example adultery. The Law of Moses, quotes the Law of God, saying, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." But Jesus takes it to a new level, to even look upon a woman to lust after her is adultery of the heart. This is why the entire body of Christ's teaching is often called, the Law of Christ.

Beards aren't mandertory, neither is stoning your unfaithful wife, or taking an unfaithful wife back. We have not one word telling males to grow a beard in the law. If you were to grow one then you needed to not cut the corners. Simple. Chris, for someone who claims to have been in church for X amount of years, it seems to me you were sleeping somewhere under the pew.

I don't believe that the law concerning beards was addressing an optional "fashion choice". According to Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, the beard was actually mandated in response to the pagan practices of the Egyptians. The commentary states:

neither shalt thou mar, etc.—The Egyptians used to cut or shave off their whiskers, as may be seen in the coffins of mummies, and the representations of divinities on the monuments. But the Hebrews, in order to separate them from the neighboring nations, or perhaps to put a stop to some existing superstition, were forbidden to imitate this practice. It may appear surprising that Moses should condescend to such minutiæ as that of regulating the fashion of the hair and the beard—matters which do not usually occupy the attention of a legislator—and which appear widely remote from the province either of government or of a religion. A strong presumption, therefore, arises that he had in mind by these regulations to combat some superstitious practices of the Egyptians.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible also connects this law to being a response to pagan practice:

neither shall thou mar the corners of thy beard; by shaving them entirely; Jarchi and other Jewish writers say, there are five of them, two on the right, as Gersom reckons them, one on the upper jaw, the other on the nether, and two over against them on the left, and one in the place where the nether jaw joins the right to the left, the chin; the same observes, that it was the manner of idolaters to do the above things; and Maimonides (c) is of opinion that the reason of the prohibition is, because the idolatrous priests used this custom; but this law does not respect priests only, but the people of Israel in general; wherefore rather it was occasioned by the Gentiles in common cutting their hair, in honour of their gods, as the Arabians did, as Herodotus in the above place relates, in imitation of Bacchus, and to the honour of him; and so with others, it was usual for young men to consecrate their hair to idols; but inasmuch as such practices were used on account of the dead, as Aben Ezra observes, it seems probable enough that these things are forbidden to be done on their account, since it follows,

(b) Thalia, sive, l. 3. c. 8. (c) Moreh Nevochim, par. 3. c. 37. Hilchot Obede Cochabim, c. 12. sect. 1.

The beard mandate is given in context with other mandates against pagan practices:

"And the Lord said to Moses, Speak to the priests the sons of Aaron . . . A leader shall not defile himself among his people to pollute himself; they shall not make baldness on their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh" (Lev.21:1;4-5 KJV). See also Lev.19:27-28; Deut.14:1.

The application of the law of beards in Leviticus, chapter 21 is firmly attached to the issue of defilement. Leviticus 21, verses 4-5 prohibit one from defiling himself by doing certain things, such as making bald spots on his head, shaving off the corners of the beard, or cutting his skin, which the societies around them did in mourning for their dead. The English word defile in verse 4 is translated from the Hebrew word "chalal", which means to bore, and implies to wound or to dissolve and figuratively to profane or defile.

This is why devout Conservative and Orthodox Jews do not cut the edges of their beards. It's a matter of transgressing the law, forsaking the factors that God set in place to separate the people from pagan practices of Egypt, and defiling one's self.

---------------

Now, I do not believe that these laws apply to born again Christians. However, anyone who does believe that a born again Christian must keep the whole law, and still shaves their own face, is clearly in violation of the very standard they claim one mustn't transgress against in order to be "perfect" or "sinless".

I would like Esaias to weigh in on this too, seeing that he posted:

Originally Posted by Esaias

If your "spiritual core calling us to a higher inner and personal holiness" results in you not actually obeying the commandments of God, then you are just a Pharisee and are outside the kingdom.

We have to properly define what is meant by "commandments of God" and what exactly those commandments are if we are to not transgress against them.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Thank you Jesus for men who study.

It makes one wonder what other heretical, antichrist junk from the Middle Ages is still be offered to the saints as righteous doctrine.

[votivesoul]

Hebrews 10:1,

1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Galatians 3:1-3,

1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

While sin is the transgression of the law, keeping the law is not what makes a believer perfect before God. Rather, it's being made perfect before God by faith in Christ Jesus as an heir of Abraham, that allows a believer to keep the law perfectly, that is, not transgress it, or sin.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Hebrews 10:1,

1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Galatians 3:1-3,

1. O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2. This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3. Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

While sin is the transgression of the law, keeping the law is not what makes a believer perfect before God. Rather, it's being made perfect before God by faith in Christ Jesus as an heir of Abraham, that allows a believer to keep the law perfectly, that is, not transgress it, or sin.

I agree.

But what does it mean to "keep the law perfectly"???

Would this mean that EB needs to grow a beard? Does it require circumcision? Must we not eat pork?

Can we define what it means to "keep the law perfectly" so that we can confront legalistic questions like those above?

[Aquila]

Imagine if every speed limit sign simply said, "Keep the speed limit".

Wouldn't you eventually ask, "What exactly is the speed limit???"

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree.

But what does it mean to "keep the law perfectly"???

Would this mean that EB needs to grow a beard? Does it require circumcision? Must we not eat pork?

Can we define what it means to "keep the law perfectly" so that we can confront legalistic questions like those above?

Aquila, you seem to refuse to answer my question. Yet I explained that Jesus told them that the Law contained everything concerning Christ. I also pointed out that Jesus didn’t come to destroy the Law but to finish it or mature it. But anyone teaching not to keep the law completely would be the least in heaven. Now you bring up a question concerning circumcision? Acts 15 explains the Romans and how they were admonished to get rid of ritual foods and ritual fornication. But sin is still explained as transgression of the Law. Hence Romans couldn’t circumcise because if they did they would be required to keep all the law or be in sin. Beards weren’t an obligation to the church, abstaining from meats weren’t an obligation, neither was circumcision. No Roman was to become a Physical Judean to convert to the True Israel of God. If they did they would be obligated to the whole of the law.