To tithe or not to tithe?

[Jacob's Ladder]

Praxeas,

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Where does the bible say Jacob did not tithe?

It’s located within the same chapter that shows us where Jacob did tithe. You wouldn’t mind posting those scriptures, would you?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Jacobs promise to serve God was not contingent on what God promised but what Jacob asked God to do...

Jacob never asked of God! Please read the entire chapter of Genesis 28. It was God who instigated, and Jacob simply replied. Look……


God said - (Gen 28:15) I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go
Jacob Replies – (Gen 28:20) If God will be with me and will keep me in this way that I go
God said – (Gen 28:15) I will bring you back to this land
Jacob Replies – (Gen 28:21) If God will keep me…….so that I come again to my father's house in peace
God said – (Gen 28:13) I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying
Jacob replied – (Gen 28:22) If…… all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you


Jacob asked for nothing, as you suggested! Jacob rather said “if” god would! The emphasis is on “IF.” God initiated the conversation and Jacob responded.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Second God gave them that land the moment He promised it. God fulfilled His end of what He promised the moment He declared it.

Really, God gave Jacob the promised land? Didn’t you read Hebrews 11:9,13 (see below)? Praxeas, here’s a question for you! The scriptures below read that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were recipients of the same promise and yet they never received it. Which promise was that?

You said above, “God fulfilled His end of what He promised the moment He declared it.”
Who is wrong, you or the bible? Thank you.

Hebrews 11:9,13
9) By faith he made his (Abraham) home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

13) All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See above. The land already belonged to Jacob and His decedents. God made that promise but as I pointed out that is irrelevant. Jacob did not vow "if and when I finally get the land and all my descendents then you will be my God..."...

Really? What was Jacob supposed to give a tenth of? Also, as I stated above, Jacob never received the promise. His descendants (Israelites) received the promise after crossing over Jordan. Technically, it was then when Jacob’s 3rd vow became effective and God collected. God stated in Leviticus that He wanted the tenth. He was collecting on Jacob’s vow after fulfilling his promise (giving the land to Jacob's descendants) .

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Which would mean God is a liar when He said "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"...because according to you God did not fulfill His promise so Jacob could not fulfill his vow

How did I call God a liar? He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Furthermore, this confirms Jacob’s first vow. Do you recall Jacob saying, “then the lord will be my god?”
And no, According to Hebrews chapter 11, Jacob didn’t received the promise. If anyone is calling God a liar, it’s Hebrews chapter 11, If we interpret things from your prospective.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He gave it the moment He declared it.When it was fulfilled is irrelevant. God gave them the land the moment He declared it and again has nothing to do with the vow

Wrong.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Thus proving my point that tithing predates the law and is not constrained by the law. Thank you

How does tithing predate the law? Give me scripture where Jacob tithed prior to his vow? Remember, he was Abraham’s grandson. Jacob should have already been tithing. Furthermore, Jacob would have never suggested that he would give a tenth of all, if he already knew tithing predated the law and was mandatory.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You need to post that verse that says Jacob never tithed..

You need to post a scripture proving that Jacob did tithe.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW Why would he do the other parts of the vow if God did not fulfill His end of the agreement yet according to you? Why just tithing?

Simple! God did fulfill certain promises. God protected Jacob and in return, Jacob made God his personal Lord. Next, God brought Jacob back to this father’s land and in return, Jacob set up a pillar. They both kept 2 of three promises. The last promise occurred when Jacob’s descendants crossed over Jordan, God gave the descendants the land and in return, God required Jacob’s vow from Jacob’s descendants, thus, tithing. This tithing only occurred after Jacob’s statement of,” and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.” Jacob had nothing to give until his descendants entered the promised land.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Receiving and being given are not the same things

Explain how Jacob was given the promise land, and yet he never received the promise.


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Jacob never asked of God! Please read the entire chapter of Genesis 28. It was God who instigated, and Jacob simply replied. Look……


God said - (Gen 28:15) I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go
Jacob Replies – (Gen 28:20) If God will be with me and will keep me in this way that I go
God said – (Gen 28:15) I will bring you back to this land
Jacob Replies – (Gen 28:21) If God will keep me…….so that I come again to my father's house in peace
God said – (Gen 28:13) I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying
Jacob replied – (Gen 28:22) If…… all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you

Jacob never said "If you do what you said then I will tithe". Tithing was based on what Jacob stipulated God would do not what God said HE would do.

Read this:
Gen 28:20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat and clothing to wear,
Gen 28:21 so that I come again to my father's house in peace, then the LORD shall be my God,
Gen 28:22 and this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house. And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you."

See the words in Bold? THAT was Jacob's stipulation for God being his God. In there was nothing about being given or receiving the land nor having a large off spring also receiving it

Jacob asked for nothing, as you suggested! Jacob rather said “if” god would! The emphasis is on “IF.” God initiated the conversation and Jacob responded.

Right! That was Jacob's CONDITIONS for the following:
then the LORD shall be my God

and this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house.

And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you."

Jacob's conditions did not include what God promised earlier He said He would do

Really, God gave Jacob the promised land? Didn’t you read Hebrews 11:9,13 (see below)? Praxeas, here’s a question for you! The scriptures below read that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were recipients of the same promise and yet they never received it. Which promise was that?

Yes I did. Did you read what I said about the DIFFERENCE between being GIVEN something and RECEIVING something?

God GAVE His Son to the whole world, yet not everyone RECEIVES the Son

You said above, “God fulfilled His end of what He promised the moment He declared it.”
Who is wrong, you or the bible? Thank you.

You are wrong. God GAVE or PROMISED.

You are confusing Jacob's RECEIVING with God's GIVING. God GAVE when He promised. When God makes a covenant, it's a done deal on HIS end. God does not lie or change

Hebrews 11:9,13
9) By faith he made his (Abraham) home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

13) All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

Right they did not RECEIVE what? They did not receive what???? The PROMISE.

God already promised it.

Do you forget what Heb 11 was about? Read the context

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

See Abraham DID receive the Promise. He was the beneficiary of the promise

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son,

He just did not receive the fulfillment of it. But it was already his given by God.

Let's say a kid has an uncle that died and leaves him a million dollars. The money is the kids but there is a stipulation that he can't spend it until he is 18.

The money was still GIVEN to the kid. Hope that helps.

Really? What was Jacob supposed to give a tenth of?

Whatever was his.

Also, as I stated above, Jacob never received the promise. His descendants (Israelites) received the promise after crossing over Jordan. Technically, it was then when Jacob’s 3rd vow became effective and God collected. God stated in Leviticus that He wanted the tenth. He was collecting on Jacob’s vow after fulfilling his promise (giving the land to Jacob's descendants) .

Never the less the promise was made to Jacob. It was a done deal. God gave it to Jacob. Whether Jacob received it yet is irrelevant.

How did I call God a liar? He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Furthermore, this confirms Jacob’s first vow. Do you recall Jacob saying, “then the lord will be my god?”
And no, According to Hebrews chapter 11, Jacob didn’t received the promise. If anyone is calling God a liar, it’s Hebrews chapter 11, If we interpret things from your prospective.

Like I said that Jacob did not RECEIVE yet is irrelevant. God had already promised it to Jacob.

How does tithing predate the law? Give me scripture where Jacob tithed prior to his vow? Remember, he was Abraham’s grandson. Jacob should have already been tithing. Furthermore, Jacob would have never suggested that he would give a tenth of all, if he already knew tithing predated the law and was mandatory.

Jacob said he would tithe when God became His God. Unless Jacob was a liar then I believe Jacob tithed to God.

That predates the Law

Abraham also tithed.

That predates the law.

Somehow you are confusing THE LAW and the VOW Jacob made. What makes you think Jacob new tithing predated the law or knew of the law?

Nor am I saying it was mandatory. That is all irrelevant to the fact that tithing as a practice predates the law

You need to post a scripture proving that Jacob did tithe.

There are none. I believe Jacob tithed because he said he would when Yahweh became his God. We know that Yahweh was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so logical deduction leads us to believe Jacob did what he said he would or he did none at all!

Simple! God did fulfill certain promises. God protected Jacob and in return, Jacob made God his personal Lord. Next, God brought Jacob back to this father’s land and in return, Jacob set up a pillar. They both kept 2 of three promises. The last promise occurred when Jacob’s descendants crossed over Jordan, God gave the descendants the land and in return, God required Jacob’s vow from Jacob’s descendants, thus, tithing. This tithing only occurred after Jacob’s statement of,” and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.” Jacob had nothing to give until his descendants entered the promised land.

God fulfills ALL His promises.

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in Him are yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God by us.

Jacob's condition for what he would do was based on what Jacob said God would do. There is no indication it was a three step bargain. Jacob said If you do THIS the I will do THIS

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat and clothing to put on,
Gen 28:21 and I come again to my father's house in peace, then shall Jehovah be my God.
Gen 28:22 And this stone which I have set for a pillar shall be God's house. And of all that You shall give me, I will surely give the tenth to You.

[shag]

So now that it’s been over 8 years….

Question:

How exactly did Jacob fulfill his vow to give God a tenth?

To Esau his brother?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by shag

So now that it’s been over 8 years….

Question:

How exactly did Jacob fulfill his vow to give God a tenth?

To Esau his brother?

We have no scriptural record of Jacob fulfilling his vow. If he did it would have been after he returned to the land of his father, as he was ordered to do by God. Returning to his fathers land in safety fulfilled the final stipulation that he required, to tithe to God.

Did he? The Bible doesn’t verify whether he did or not.

If he was a man of his word? He did.

If he didn’t? He failed to honor his vow to God.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

We have no scriptural record of Jacob fulfilling his vow. If he did it would have been after he returned to the land of his father, as he was ordered to do by God. Returning to his fathers land in safety fulfilled the final stipulation that he required, to tithe to God.

Did he? The Bible doesn’t verify whether he did or not.

If he was a man of his word? He did.

If he didn’t? He failed to honor his vow to God.

This guys thesis is what stimulated my question, he believes perhaps the Bible does show where he did….Jacob fulfilling his vow, by giving such a great deal of his herd possessions to his brother Esau.

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-P...5_Peterson.pdf


Possible?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by shag

This guys thesis is what stimulated my question, he believes perhaps the Bible does show where he did….Jacob fulfilling his vow, by giving such a great deal of his herd possessions to his brother Esau.

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-P...5_Peterson.pdf


Possible?

It may be possible. The problem is that it is not verifiable. It’s really a pretty crazy made up theory in my opinion. Think about it. We could go further.

God loved Jacob and hated Esau.

[2] I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
[3] And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

So according to his theory, Jacob paid his debt of tithe to Esau whom God hated.

So would it be possible that the tithe that God commanded the Israelites to pay could have been paid to the Ammorites?

I don’t believe so. It was holy to the Lord. It had better be regarded as Holy and handled according to instructions.

There is a LOT wrong about this paper. Specifically that he routinely has to add to or disregard scripture to make his guess seem workable.

It’s fiction. No more and no less.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by shag

So now that it’s been over 8 years….

Question:

How exactly did Jacob fulfill his vow to give God a tenth?

To Esau his brother?

To his pastor? /s

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by coksiw

To his pastor? /s

Or maybe to his priest?

[Jito463]

I was just today watching a video (about board games, of all things), and the guy doing the video was talking about as a Jew, he gives 10% to charity as a tithe. Thoughts?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Jito463

I was just today watching a video (about board games, of all things), and the guy doing the video was talking about as a Jew, he gives 10% to charity as a tithe. Thoughts?

Yeah, google "Maasar Kesafim", and its origins.