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02-10-2012, 02:05 PM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
TGBTG,
Have you every read a book titled Grace Walk? I think you'd like it. The author, Steve McVey, also wrote a book titled, " The 101 Lies Taught in Church Every Sunday." Here's a youtube clip of him and his angles. Tell me what you think? A lot of my friends in the Baptist church really like him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVa3XWfmDDc
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I think this clip is accurate...considering Gal 3 (especially verse 14)
What do you think?
Gal 3
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
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02-11-2012, 11:49 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
I'm talking about the Spirit's urging to obey God's Law and to abstain from sin.
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That is what I am talking about as well. But you are seeing an alleged difference, using the passages you cited, between God's Law and Moses' Law and there is no difference. Moses gave God's Law. And the verses have to be read out of context to show an apparent difference between every two references you group together.
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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02-11-2012, 11:50 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamingZword
Dear Bro Blume
You are indeed a slippery one.
We will have a hard time making a sabbatarian out of you. So I gues I will have to let the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth, including the Revelation of the Sabbath.
I was not a sabbath believer for many years, I even preached against the Sabbath and keeping the Ten Commandments for I considered them Law. But the Lord eventually opened my eyes to keeping the Sabbath.
Let there be peace among Jesus name people.
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I am actually a truer sabbatarian than those who keep the seventh day. I recognize Jesus, Himself, the body -- as the Sabbath!
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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02-11-2012, 11:52 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
Bro Blume, Isn't the ten commandments what Paul was referring to in 2 Cor 3? and he said the Law written in stones was DONE AWAY with?
The Literal ten commandments of Exodus 20 are NOT binding on us today.
What it binding on us today is much GREATER than the 10 commandments.
For example:
Matt 5
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Jesus was quoting from the 10 commandments. He did not nullify them, but Jesus took it up to a higher level.
Under the "Law of God", it would be okay to lust in your heart as long as there is no physical act of adultery.
Under grace, lusting after another person is on the same LEVEL as committing the act itself.
So for those who wanna keep the 10 commandments, sorry, but Jesus calls us to a higher standard. Jesus was showing us the "real heart" of the 10 commandments.
So also, keeping the sabbath under the Law was taking that one day off from your daily activities and reflecting upon / resting in God.
Under grace, keeping the sabbath goes much higher than just setting aside one day out of the week. Under grace, we are to reflect upon God and rest in God EVERYDAY.
Under grace, there is NOTHING like sunday worship or saturday worship.
We worship God every day. We rest in God everyday. We keep the sabbath EVERYDAY.
Strictly speaking, the demands of Grace is much higher than that of the Law. But GRACE empowers to achieve while the Law just reveals your sinfulness.
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Yes, correct. It is done away in the sense that WRITTEN LAW-KEEPING demands are gone. The essence of these commandments are what we keep by a totally different method than oldness of the letter of the Law. It is now newness of walking after the Spirit. And when we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, which is precisely what law tried, but failed, to accomplish in us.
Paul dealt with this whole issue and it is odd people still do not get it.
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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02-11-2012, 11:54 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
Jesus said something very interesting to the legalistic Pharisees who were trying to trap Him with regards to the Law of God. Let’s review it:
Matthew 22:34-40
{22:34} But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put
the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
{22:35} Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked
[him a question, ]tempting him, and saying, {22:36}
Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
{22:37} Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind. {22:38} This is the first and great commandment.
{22:39} And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself. {22:40} On these two commandments
hang all the law and the prophets. Notice something here… Jesus quotes THE LAW:
Leviticus
{19:18} Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.
Deuteronomy
{6:5} And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Would anyone here argue, “But that is the Law!” No. Back to the passage itself…
The lawyer asked Jesus about the greatest commandment in the law. Jesus takes these two commandments and demonstrates that they embody the two governing principles of the entire Law of God. Now any honest soul will ask, How does one properly love God with all their heart, soul, and mind? After all… a pagan convert who is ignorant of God’s Word might erect a statue of Jesus or His mother and bow down to it out of LOVE! Lol But that’s not God’s will. How do we know how to properly worship and demonstrate our love for God? A pagan new convert might “love” his neighbor by offering physical pleasure as pagans do. How is this new convert who hasn’t had their mind renewed going to know the will of God concerning how to love their neighbor? What if some angry self loathing man chooses to hate and cheat on his wife out of spite. In his twisted mind, he’d expect her to do the same to him. How does he know how he should be loved and how to demonstrate love? God’s Law reveals this:
Governing Principle: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Applied how?
I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain, for the Lord will not
hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain
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Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
V
Honor thy father and thy mother,
that thy days may be long upon the land
which the Lord thy God giveth thee Governing Principle: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Applied how?
VI
Thou shalt not murder
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery
VIII
Thou shalt not steal
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness
against thy neighbor
X
Thou shalt not covet If one’s actions violate any one of these Ten Commandments in letter of the law or spirit of the law…they have failed to live by the governing principles of Christianity as laid out by Jesus and are NOT walking after the Spirit.
The keeping the Law doesn't justify or save us. It cannot. However, for those of us who are saved... the Spirit's witness to the Law shows us how to walk and to be holy in thought, word, and deed.
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But you are still missing the forest for the trees. It is a matter between reading rules on paper or stone and urging self will power to fulfil them versus allowing the Spirit to change our hearts and see us do these things without carnal influence.
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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02-11-2012, 11:59 AM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
So why is it that if the Spirit causes us to observe the Sabbath (not out of law, but out of love)... you oppose???
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The Spirit does not urge anyone to keep Judaic rituals that were done away with when the schoolmaster of those laws fulfilled its purpose until Christ came.
Be honest. A BOOK you read or article someone else wrote changed your mind. The Spirit does not lead us to keep days, months or years any more. Gal 4:9-11.
Quote:
I do not oppose having church on Sunday. I am troubled by blatant rebellion against God's Word. It's my calling and my duty to admonish people to obedience:
Matthew 5:17-19
{5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. {5:19} Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them,] the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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You misread the context of those words. Jesus told how powerful law is and how He came to SEE EXPIRATION of them occur. FULFILLMENT is not keeping it but is fulfillment in the sense that they are like object-prophecies (similar to object lessons), that He fulfilled by being, Himself, what they all foreshadowed. Destruction of Law means it served no purpose and is not hereby fulfilled in Jesus as though Jesus IS the sabbath, personally. Law was not useless. It was useful, but only before Christ came, and only for Israel.
Quote:
I'm not saying one has to go to church on the Sabbath. I'm not saying that one should never attend a Sunday service. I'm simply stating that there is a blessing in honoring God's commandments. The Sabbath only asks three things of us:
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You are trading the ACTUAL blessing of JESUS as your ONLY sabbath when you think you must ALSO keep a foreshadowing DAY.
Quote:
Exodus 20:8-11
{20:8}Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. {20:9} Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: {20:10} But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy
daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates: {20:11} For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is,] and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. We are told to:
-Remember
-Keep the day holy (set aside for sacred use)
-The entire household should rest You might dedicate the Sabbath to being the day you have family altar or family devotions. You might dedicate the Sabbath to being a time to be alone with God on the lake fishing, on the porch reading, or in the yard praying. As your body experiences the sacred rthym of rest, you will find great peace in your mind and realize... this is not a drudgery... but a gift to you. In our busy culture with it's ever increasing speed and items on the schedule the value Sabbath has never been more necessary. Nervous breakdowns, divorce, fighting, frustration, anxiety, in our homes are taking place partly because of the increasing quest to get MORE FASTER. Man wasn't designed for this pace. God ordained that we rest one day in seven. God designated the seventh day as a day of rest because we'd shuffle and shift it to fit our schedule until we shoved it off entirely. For the believer... Sunday is often the most busy day of the week! lol You'd be amazed at how many families fight and bicker as they rush to get up on time, rush to get cleaned up and dressed, rush to eat, rush to get to the church, and rush to their pews. lol Husbands and wives who "let each other have it" in the car... and as soon as they step out... they're all smiling and happy looking. LOL I've seen it.... I've done it. Ah... but the Sabbath. The Sabbath is beautiful! Now the spiritual Sabbath I experience in my soul through Jesus is manifest around me once a week. That which was natural, plain ol' Saturday... has now become powerfully sacred. I love to go birdwatching and pray. During the summer I love to get out on the lake and pray. Sometimes fish... sometimes just drift as I pray or read the Word. It slows things down. It's a blessing. Not a drudgery. I so wish people understood the value in obeying this commandment. I wish so many didn't automatically rush to the "legalism" accusations. It's a sanctuary in time that brings a rthym of rest and calm to one's life.
What the Sabbath means to me:
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It doesn't mean "Attending Church".
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It does not mean keeping a day. Paul said days, months and years ARE DONE AWAY WITH NOW. Paul feared for the very thing you are doing. Study Gal 3:24 through 4:12, and realize the days and months and years he told them to let go of were the bondage of the schoolmaster only intended for Jews before Jesus actually came.
No one should have to re-invent the wheel again. Paul already covered this.
He continued to tell the Galatians that insistence on doing PART of that LAW OF GOD would require them responsible to keep ALL OF IT.
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Last edited by mfblume; 02-11-2012 at 12:09 PM.
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02-11-2012, 03:09 PM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
I am actually a truer sabbatarian than those who keep the seventh day. I recognize Jesus, Himself, the body -- as the Sabbath! 
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Nothing replaces physical rest, nothing.
Since I've been in the Apostolic Movement (33 years), I've never understood the concept, "Jesus takes the place of the Sabbath" (rest).
The intent of the Sabbath is for physical rest, and Science and Medical studies prove that rest is a mental and physical necessity that Americans are avoiding because of greed.
And, the Church is no exception. The Church robs people of time and rest, and this mfblume, is caused by an inner motive to grow at any cost. I've watched more people walk away from Church because of too many obligations and programs that leave no time left to enjoy a day with no work involved.
We have several people in our Assembly who are from the Apostolic Assemblies Organization, and they were worked to death. If they didn’t participate in a fund raiser or outreach, out came the “Fear Bag”. They became so weary and burned out, they finally decided to move away from this “Faith by Works” religion.
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02-11-2012, 03:23 PM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
well said.
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02-11-2012, 04:04 PM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotforSale
Nothing replaces physical rest, nothing.
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Resting physically is not the issue. I already said we need a day of rest, but the day we choose is not an issue, either. I was talking about the deal as a religious commandment.
Quote:
Since I've been in the Apostolic Movement (33 years), I've never understood the concept, "Jesus takes the place of the Sabbath" (rest).
The intent of the Sabbath is for physical rest, and Science and Medical studies prove that rest is a mental and physical necessity that Americans are avoiding because of greed.
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No, it is for more than that. It was a HOLY day. Holiness has nothing to do with rest in itself.
Quote:
And, the Church is no exception. The Church robs people of time and rest, and this mfblume, is caused by an inner motive to grow at any cost. I've watched more people walk away from Church because of too many obligations and programs that leave no time left to enjoy a day with no work involved.
We have several people in our Assembly who are from the Apostolic Assemblies Organization, and they were worked to death. If they didn’t participate in a fund raiser or outreach, out came the “Fear Bag”. They became so weary and burned out, they finally decided to move away from this “Faith by Works” religion.
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Looks like you have more issues than negligence of a day of rest.
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02-11-2012, 04:20 PM
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Re: Rejoicing In the Sabbath:
In Colossians, Paul taught that he sought to present every one perfect to the Lord to whom he preached. In other words, have them rooted and grounded IN CHRIST. He went on in chapter 2 to say that there are treasures hidden in Christ that many who are in Him do not know about. They are hidden in Christ. Everything in Christ is there for anything we will ever need, but people do not know they're there.
Colossians 1:27-28 KJV To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (28) Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
This is when he approached the issue of the fulness of the Godhead indwelling Christ bodily. That is not a lesson on the Oneness versus trinity, but rather complementing what he said about our needs all found in Christ. He said we cannot let any man spoil (steal us out) from being in Christ through philosophy or traditions of men. But he also added something not many people catch the meaning for. Do not let anyone steal you from within Christ by the RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD. THE RUDIMENTS OF THE WORLD are the elements of LAW-KEEPING from the entire gamut of the Old Testament -- Genesis - Malachi. It is the same thing as saying the ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD in Galatians 4. Elementary school of Law.
Colossians 2:6-11 KJV As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: (7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. (8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Circumcision was before Mosaic law, also, as Sabbath. But do sabbatarians demand that?
The principle in Colossians 2 is that nobody needs to tell you that you have to keep sabbath day to spiritually please the Lord for any spiritual purpose. Take it as a rest alone, but do so on any day. But as soon as you demand the seventh day, which the Old Testament said was HOLY, then a religious adherence is then involved.
The way we received Christ is by faith, and the way we continue walking in Him is therefore also by faith and not obedience to commandments that require the flesh to do or not do. There are things we must do and not do simply for the sake of not delving into sin, but not for the sake of CREATING righteousness in us that we need for heaven.
I am complete in Christ as far as what it takes for me to go to glory. Refraining from sin is not accomplished to CAUSE ME to go to glory but rather to MAINTAIN my status of being heaven-bound and not lose it by committing sins.
I am complete in Christ to such a degree that everything required in the OLD TESTAMENT to spiritually please God is automatically mine already just because I am in Christ. Christ is the embodiment of everything I need from God, including going-to-heaven-status.
And if anyone convinces someone else to ADD TO THAT IN-CHRIST STATUS that awards us all we need to make us fit for glory, they ARE SPOILING AND STEALING SOMEONE FROM BEING IN CHRIST.
That is why Gal 5 says we FALL FROM GRACE by circumcision. And Sabbath-keeping does the same, UNLESS one only does it for physical rest and not to please God in a way that means we are ready for glory.
It's like CHRIST is a HOUSE that is comprised of all we need to please God. And when we get inside this house, we are immersed into all we need to please God. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE CAN SIN and not be guilty and lose salvation. We LEAVE this house when we sin. But we can also LEAVE it by thinking we must add to our position of being in Christ to award us heaven and righteousness. THAT is what Col 2:8 is saying.
If someone convinces us to add to our position in Christ in order to make us righteous and fit for glory, they actually have removed us from Christ. Being IN CHRIST means we depend upon nothing else that we must DO in order to be right with God and fully fit for glory. SO, when we depend on MORE than simply being in Christ, then we are no longer in Him.
It seems anytime someone speaks of IN CHRIST status with God, those unfamiliar with it think they are proposing we can sin and not lose salvation. lol. No. It is only speaking of WHAT MAKES US READY FOR HEAVEN and what makes us RIGHTEOUS. Simply by being IN CHRIST, before we do one good deed, we are as righteous as He is, and thereby fully fit for glory! ALL OTHER IDEAS CONTRARY TO THIS ARE elements of LEGALISM.
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Last edited by mfblume; 02-11-2012 at 04:32 PM.
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