Blacks and the UPCI

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The UPC has had an element of racism in its history. Last week I was sharing the PCI manual that Raven had sent me with an elderly UPC minister and he told me how that in the '40's and early '50's the "colored" ministers were always listed in the back of the directory. Sad.

I have family of "mixed race" and my heart is always troubled when I see them suffer either because they are not "white enough" or because they are not "black enough." As a young minister I idealistically accepted an invitation to speak at an all black church in another org and was pretty much told not to come back because I was a "white boy."

PraiseHymn, as you get around you will get hurt. You probably have already seen that. The UPC today is very progressive as far as "race" goes and I've even heard where "minority" ministers were being recruited for leadership in places where they were under represented before. Of course, not everyone gets with the Gospel message and you will inevitably find some rancorous sourpuss spouting Jim Crow. We all bump into these types wherever we go in society, you can't let it get you down.

As far as TV and facial hair- well, black men have traditionally been given a pass on facial hair in Apostolic ranks. I consider that unfair , but that's the way it is. And TV is only a big deal if you make it to be. Most folks couldn't care less where you come down on that issue.

Some really good churches in Atlanta have already been mentioned. Pastor D. Johns is a great man and you won't find a better pastor no matter what you look like. He's a Christian. I wish you all the best on your move and welcome to AFF.

I have heard people in the UPC making racial jokes or using the N word. Both offended me, especially since they were aimed at blacks and it just so happens a black lady helped bring me to the Lord and was a dear friend since the seventh grade. Personally I think our nation has become WAY too hyper-sensitive over the issue but at the same time I think perhaps it's best everyone find other material for their jokes...that includes Chris Rock who seems to great away with lots

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Excellent post .... Question for you TimLan ...

You said that the diversity of the NYMD board is a reflection of the population ... however can't the same be said about South Texas or even Louisiana. What I mean is ... why don't the boards in these multi-cultural districts reflect the diversity found in these states/regions?

Well ... good question also.

I guess my answer would be: for the last 40 years or so, the boards WERE a reflection of the racial makeup of the ministerial body AND church congregations in the UPC south.

THEN blacks and hispanics were relegated to "ethnic works."

I'm normally against "Affirmative Action" but I do appreciate the Louisiana District for their step regarding Richard Allmon.

Allmon was head of the "black work" for many years - a safe place for a qualified black.

Allmon is now a full-fledged member of the Louisiana District Board as "presbyter-at-large."

http://www.ladistupc.com/administrat...nistration.htm

(I notice the Louisiana District Board has undergone a major transition lately with longtime members like Glenn Chance, Fred Foster, Gene Simpkins and of course G. A. Mangun having retired.)

Here is my question: is the "Presbyter-at-Large" position an elected one by the district voting body or is it appointed?

Now let's cut to the chase.

I've sat in more sectional conferences in Louisiana and Texas than what I can count and knew the entire ministerial and pastoral body of Louisana as well as anyone when I was active in the ministry.

Do I believe ... even in 2007, that were there a qualified black pastor even pastoring an "integrated" church such as Thad's pastor ... educated, able, with bearing and gravitas - do I believe such a man could be elected sectional presbyter by a section in Louisiana or to a real influential District Office other than an ethnic one by the largely-white Louisiana District ministerial voting body?

My opinion?

An unqualified "no."

Now answer me this Dan.

Like the Dylan song "the times, they are a-changing."

As a young man, the UPC directory listed the Houston churches as the main stalwarts - Kilgore, Fauss, Dees, Bean and later Free, Forrest Ford, etc. etc.

Talk about "population reflection" ... now there are a ton of spanish works listed pastored by obviously hispanic pastors.

Houston is a part of the South Texas District.

My question:

Are these Houston churches and ministers full-fledged independent churches in the South Texas District and do those pastors vote in district and sectional conferences?

OR ... are they safely tucked away by the white-boy leadership as "daughter works" or "ethnic works"?

I'd find the answer to that interesting.

[Hawkman]

THere is a mentality in the UPC that goes along with their racial viewpoint. It is quite simply stated as superiority. It is far from humility. The racial history of the UPC is not good and the PAW has not forgotten it, good or bad. There is no racial equality by an large. It's racial arrogance in a stench vs the sweet smelling savor it should be!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Well ... good question also.

I guess my answer would be: for the last 40 years or so, the boards WERE a reflection of the racial makeup of the ministerial body AND church congregations in the UPC south.

THEN blacks and hispanics were relegated to "ethnic works."

I'm normally against "Affirmative Action" but I do appreciate the Louisiana District for their step regarding Richard Allmon.

Allmon was head of the "black work" for many years - a safe place for a qualified black.

Allmon is now a full-fledged member of the Louisiana District Board as "presbyter-at-large."

http://www.ladistupc.com/administrat...nistration.htm

(I notice the Louisiana District Board has undergone a major transition lately with longtime members like Glenn Chance, Fred Foster, Gene Simpkins and of course G. A. Mangun having retired.)

Here is my question: is the "Presbyter-at-Large" position an elected one by the district voting body or is it appointed?

Now let's cut to the chase.

I've sat in more sectional conferences in Louisiana and Texas than what I can count and knew the entire ministerial and pastoral body of Louisana as well as anyone when I was active in the ministry.

Do I believe ... even in 2007, that were there a qualified black pastor even pastoring an "integrated" church such as Thad's pastor ... educated, able, with bearing and gravitas - do I believe such a man could be elected sectional presbyter by a section in Louisiana or to a real influential District Office other than an ethnic one by the largely-white Louisiana District ministerial voting body?

My opinion?

An unqualified "no."

Now answer me this Dan.

Like the Dylan song "the times, they are a-changing."

As a young man, the UPC directory listed the Houston churches as the main stalwarts - Kilgore, Fauss, Dees, Bean and later Free, Forrest Ford, etc. etc.

Talk about "population reflection" ... now there are a ton of spanish works listed pastored by obviously hispanic pastors.

Houston is a part of the South Texas District.

My question:

Are these Houston churches and ministers full-fledged independent churches in the South Texas District and do those pastors vote in district and sectional conferences?

OR ... are they safely tucked away by the white-boy leadership as "daughter works" or "ethnic works"?

I'd find the answer to that interesting.

Many of the Spanish churches in H-Town are not daugheter works ... and they do vote if they show up.

IMO ... However, their apathy mainly results from the horrific internal circumstances of the last 10 years that has affected the Spanish churches here, and the subsequent strife that has risen among them. The things that happened among them left a power vacuum.

Many of them can't stand each other or will not fellowshp w one another.

They could become a formidable voting bloc but they either don't care anymore about the goings on or cannot agree if it's partly cloudy or partly sunny.

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Many of the Spanish churches in H-Town are not daugheter works ... and they do vote if they show up.

IMO ... However, their apathy mainly results from the horrific internal circumstances of the last 10 years that has affected the Spanish churches here, and the subsequent strife that has risen among them. The things that happened among them left a power vacuum.

Many of them can't stand each other or will not fellowshp w one another.

They could become a formidable voting bloc but they either don't care anymore about the goings on or cannot agree if it's partly cloudy or partly sunny.

Gotcha.

That clears a lot up.

Sounds a lot like Alexandria, La.

The population of the city proper (about 50K) is 55 percent black.

They could very easily elect a black mayor if they would unite behind one candidate.

But not only did about four power-hungry black city councilmen and such all run for mayor and dilute the vote, apathy and ignorance kept many blacks from voting.

Of course UPC churches and pastors not getting along is not limited to the Spanish brethren.

But yes ... I envisioned them being a formidable voting bloc in the Houston Metro West and Metro East sections.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Imagine if your principle was applied in other instances.

Example: Christ only instructed commemorating the Lord's Supper to the 12.

Does this mean it was just for the 12 or just for men?

No instructions are given solely to witness/preach on the qualification of being male ... in Scripture either. Yet we see practical examples of women in Scripture winning people to the Lord and ministering in the house churches of the book of Acts and epistles.

Apostle Paul reemphasized the Lord's supper and there is a record where the early church observed it. That is what you need Dan and sorry you don't have it and honestly you have the opposite the prohibition in Paul's writings and the qualifications which are gender restrictive and NO example in the NT of women preaching in public assemblies to MEN! Women preached as every saint preaches in their public witnessing but NOT as a five-fold ministry to public assemblies to MEN. If so where? What was her name again?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

So, to follow your line of reasoning here, Elder, does this mean that only men can be saved?

John 7:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.


John 7:37 (Whole Chapter)
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

And, does this mean that only men should pray?

1 Timothy 2:8 (Whole Chapter)
I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


Does this mean that only men shall inherit eternal salvation?

Revelation 21:7 (Whole Chapter)
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

These qualifications are masculine in nature and are gender specific, and not ONE woman is named in these scriptures.

We have examples where women were baptized and recieved the HGB and where they prayed-worshipped-witnessed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But NOT ONE place where a woman in the NT preaching in a public assembly to MEN. If so chapter and verse? God also has daughters!!!!!!!!!!!!! 2Cor. 6.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

We have examples where women were baptized and recieved the HGB and where they prayed-worshipped-witnessed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But NOT ONE place where a woman in the NT preaching in a public assembly to MEN. If so chapter and verse?

Can we not attribute this to culture of the day?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Can we not attribute this to culture of the day?

Paul said if a person is spiritual they will acknowledge this things he writes are the commandments of the Lord. 1Cor.14:37

Women were very prominent in the NT church as they always have been. Women were in the upper room. Women witnessed the resurrection. Women were major keys to opening revival in their cities. Women were pillars and nuturers in the early. They were free to worship and be used in spiritual gifts and witness. I certainly am NOT downplaying the role good godly women have in the NT nor in the church of today. Women are a vital part of the church. However God through example and command does not place them in the 5-fold ministry. That does not relegate them to be unnessary or disposable they are very needful and not just to make peanut brittle. What would church be without godly women?

[Steve Epley]

A question what has Blacks and the UPC have to do with women preachers?