John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Amanah]

Don, I've said everything I could think of to say in response to your beliefs on Romans 2. I've literally nothing left to say on the topic. I feel bad that you are continuing the thread solo, but it really seems there is nothing left to say.

[donfriesen1]

Post 99. Esaias says I've met plenty of people who didn't feel at all "bad" about lying. That's why we hear of seared consciences. Most start with a tender conscience but lie to themselves, overiding the conscience. And even if they did, what of the other commandments? Paul shows us in Ro1 that they are without excuse because of what the natural world and deductive reasoning would tell a person who is listening. Paul contends that foolish people have their understanding darkened (sounds some-what like what a seared conscience could be like) leading these to idolatry. Paul contends that sinful human nature leads God to respond with the 10 Commands you mention. Man should have known better because of how made Man -- withan intellect and conscience of right and wrong.

Post 100, 101. Amanah says: There are no biblical examples of anyone ever being justified other than by faith: except for at least one example, Ro2.12-16. Paul shows these Gentiles as justified, and they don't have the Word. But they do have the internal moral code God placed in them, called the conscience. As such, they respond to God with a faith of sorts to a God-given method, which leads to good works of obedience -- a right way of living.

Post 103. Benincasa says Jeremiah 31:33 is speaking of the Christ sowing the seed upon the hearts of the righteous. The Bible says God places the Word in the heart by the Holy Ghost. The parable of the sower is spreading the Word of God. The Word is not the Holy Ghost. Which is it that you'd like to see in the heart? Can't they both be in the heart, changing a Man's attitude and actions. There are many things which reach the heart of Man resulting in a change of attitude. I know a man who got saved from seeing the ungodly musical "Jesus Christ Superstar".

Post 106. These scriptures rightly apply only to those who have heard. Please address, like Paul, those who have never heard. For example, any who lived around the time of 33 a.d. in N and S America, Australia, the many isles of the oceans, etc, etc, and died without having heard the gospel. Does a just God d.mn those there whose conscience and intellect tell them to live right but die not being born again because the gospel hasn't come to them? What kind of monster God would d.mn them when they live right. Not the Jesus I know, but the Jesus you present (that only gives a home in heaven to the born again) would fry all these right living people just because they haven't had a chance to hear the gospel. And what is the difference between these from 33 a.d. and any today who haven't heard the gospel? No difference. Some from today will thus also go to heaven by the merits of a clean conscience.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Post 103. Benincasa says Jeremiah 31:33 is speaking of the Christ sowing the seed upon the hearts of the righteous. The Bible says God places the Word in the heart by the Holy Ghost. The parable of the sower is spreading the Word of God. The Word is not the Holy Ghost. Which is it that you'd like to see in the heart? Can't they both be in the heart, changing a Man's attitude and actions. There are many things which reach the heart of Man resulting in a change of attitude. I know a man who got saved from seeing the ungodly musical "Jesus Christ Superstar".

Hoss, you don't even know what you are talking about. The Word is not the Holy Ghost? Are you a Trinitarian? Last time I checked John 16:13 says; the Spirit of Truth guides us into all Truth. Should we now start a thread to see if you even understand the Mighty God in Christ? Another thing, you know a man? I don't care about some nonsense concerning a Canadian hippy who watched a Rock Opera and got religion. Don, I hope you aren't over a congregation. Because those poor blind souls need to sprint to a Bible believing Apostolic One God Jesus name Pentecostal church. Good God in Zion! This man thinks Jesus Christ Superstar and dirty feet in rope sandals is preaching the Word. Please.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Post 106. These scriptures rightly apply only to those who have heard. Please address, like Paul, those who have never heard. For example, any who lived around the time of 33 a.d. in N and S America, Australia, the many isles of the oceans, etc, etc, and died without having heard the gospel. Does a just God ........ those there whose conscience and intellect tell them to live right but die not being born again because the gospel hasn't come to them?

What kind of monster God would ........ them when they live right

. Not the Jesus I know, but the Jesus you present (that only gives a home in heaven to the born again) would fry all these right living people just because they haven't had a chance to hear the gospel. And what is the difference between these from 33 a.d. and any today who haven't heard the gospel? No difference. Some from today will thus also go to heaven by the merits of a clean conscience.

:STOP

Don, your whole issue isn't with Esaias, isn't with Amanah, and not even me. Your whole issue is that you cannot reconcile God of the Bible. You want God to be made in your image. The above quote is the nail in your ecclesiastical coffin. The God of the Bible is a monster? You have judged God to be a monster? I was right all along about you. You are angry with God because He would be a monster if He didn't send a right living Aztec to heaven? Right living how? Because he lived by his conscience? He would still be a part of his "ungodly" culture? The word "ungodly" was previously used by you. this is the problem with false doctrine. It is question begging. So, a "right living" Aztec ripping the hearts out of captured prisoners. The Aztec obtains passage to the Kingdom of God? You see, your whole entire thought concerning Romans 2:12-16 not only doesn't apply, but cannot apply to Aztecans' world view. Paul speaking of Gentiles in 33 AD, says that they sacrificed to demons 1 Cor 10:20. Therefore they needed conversion through Christ. So, we can only deduce that Aztecs drinking human blood of their victims, slaughtering infants. Would be no more saved than a Gentile Roman officer sacrificing a bull to Mithra. No matter where their geography happened to place them. Both were lost without Christ.

So, instead of hating on God and calling Him names because He doesn't bow before your ideology. Why don't you just preach the Gospel as it is written Repentance, baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Post 106. These scriptures rightly apply only to those who have heard. Please address, like Paul, those who have never heard.

Sure!

Romans 10:13-18 KJV
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Sure!

Romans 10:13-18 KJV
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? [17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. [18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Regarding the highlighted part...

I suspect our modern view of history is incorrect.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Thanks for replying, Dom Hoss, you don't even know what you are talking about. The Word is not the Holy Ghost? I think you've missed my point when I said that the Holy Ghost isn't the Bible. Are you a Trinitarian? No.

You have judged God to be a monster? You again have missed my point, Dom. By saying God d.mns right living people it is you and those who believe like you, that are showing the world that God is a monster. ...The Aztec obtains passage to the Kingdom of God? I've not once first brought up the subject of Aztecs.... Paul speaking of Gentiles in 33 AD, says that they sacrificed to demons 1 Cor 10:20. What would you say Dom, about people who have sacrificed to demons? If never hearing the Word, their conscience would have told them, unless it was seared, that it would be wrong. Paul says so, in so many words, in Ro1. ...lost without Christ. True, they need Jesus, badly. Any possessing salvation must share what light they have with the lost. .

So, instead of hating on God and calling Him names because He doesn't bow before your ideology. Why don't you just preach the Gospel as it is written Repentance, baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. Indeed I do so. But I also share in Jesus name with my friends, truths of God's Word, such as is in this thread.

.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

We didn't show biblical proof? We wore our fingers to the bone pounding out biblical truth on our keyboards.

It is very true that the many verses you've quoted in your posts correctly show what the Bible says about NT salvation for those who have heard. What you've failed to disprove by doing so, are my allegations that Paul preaches that those who have not heard the Word are not judged as if they have, Ro5.13.

By your correctly showing what NT salvation consists of, you also have not disproved that God judges those who live right by the conscience as fit for heaven. By commenting on NT salvation you've been commenting on a 'flip side of the coin'.

[donfriesen1]

Post 106. These scriptures rightly apply only to those who have heard. Please address, like Paul, those who have never heard. For example, any who lived around the time of 33 a.d. in N and S America, Australia, the many isles of the oceans, etc, etc, and died without having heard the gospel. Does a just God d.mn those there whose conscience and intellect tell them to live right but die not being born again because the gospel hasn't come to them? What kind of monster God would d.mn them when they live right. Not the Jesus I know, but the Jesus you present (that only gives a home in heaven to the born again) would fry all these right living people just because they haven't had a chance to hear the gospel. And what is the difference between these from 33 a.d. and any today who haven't heard the gospel? No difference. Some will thus go to heaven by the merits of a clean conscience.

Post 108. Those Christians who say we aren't saved by good works are somewhat hypocritical in saying this. Faith, repentance, baptism, speaking in tongues, living right are all good works necessary for NT salvation. The difference between these good works and the self-righteous good works (that some sinners say will get them entrance to heaven) is faith. Christians do their good works in response to faith in the Word. Thus, it is hypocritical for Amanah, Dom, Esaias to say these Gentiles of Ro2.12-16 are attempting to gain entrance by good works, who act similarly when responding to God when responding to the God-given conscience. We all are saved by good works, thru faith.

Post 110. Benincasa says Picking apart dialogue is part of any discussion. Very true but nit-picking about meaningless details is not the same as picking apart dialogue because it is an unfair effort to discredit a valid point which is ignored by this nit-picking. Fight fair or don't fight. There is only one way to enter into the sheepfold. Anyone teaching that there is any other entrance is a criminal . Also true, but those that have a clean conscience are not necessarily entering the sheepfold. This is where you misunderstand what I contend for. Entering heaven is not the sheep fold. The Church is the sheep fold and only those born again enter the sheepfold/Church. Only through the blood of Christ, only through the Gospel can anyone be saved. The blood was shed for every sin not just the sins of the NT Church. Those who listen to the God-given conscience when they don't have the Word, show they want to go the way God wants them to go and the blood also covers their sins.

Post 111. Amanda says Unbelievers will not inherit the Kingdom: True, but there is a world of a difference between a person who hears the Word and rejects it and a person who has never heard the Word but listens/obeys their God-given conscience.

Post 113. Amanda says While the specifics of Enoch's obedience are not detailed, these points suggest that he lived a life of faith, righteousness, and close relationship with God, which were likely key aspects of his obedience. Enoch walked in a time when Paul says the law wasn't given. Any faith he had was gained from what source if he had no Word? Paul tells us in Ro1 that the foolish gentiles who worship idols should have had faith to recognise the God of creation and his eternal power and Godhead from what he had created. Paul thus says faith can come from observing creation. Enoch had this kind of faith, along with what the conscience and human reasoning-power brings to those who listen. Faith can grow from creation, the Holy Ghost speaking, listening to man's words (preaching), interactions with angels, reading the Word. Reading and hearing the Word aren't the only sources of faith.

[donfriesen1]

Post 115. Amanah says Noah was intimately familiar with and had faith in the preincarnate living Word. True. Something within him told him, without having the Word of God, that there was a God. This is different from the faith that comes by reading or hearing the Word, which some on AFF insist must be heard to have any faith. You thus show you agree with me that the Word isn't the only source of faith.

Post 124. Yes, saved by the reconciling message of Jesus in those who heard it. But those who haven't heard it can't be saved by it. But what of those who want to do right, something in them telling them to do right, but have never heard? Does God condemn these who have something within them that tells them to live right? No, giving them a home in heaven according to Ro2.12-16, but not as born again, not as a part of the Church. These are similar to Enoch, who also wasn't a part of the Church.

Post 125 Amanah says Enoch had a relationship with this preincarnate Word, walking with God and receiving promises Please quote the references for these promises you say he received. In essence, Enoch had the Word of God, the promise of the Messiah, and was saved by faith in Him If Enoch had faith in the Messiah then he had it from hearing about what had been told to Adam and Eve, passed down word of mouth. The only Word that we know of at that time is what was told to them and any others, like Noah.

Post 129. Benincasa tells of Paul at Athens. These who are idolators rebel against what is within them -- the 'knowledge' that God is not an idol. These who do so rebel against their own truth, turning the truth into a lie. But this does not address the situation started in this thread, which is those who live right by the conscience when not hearing the Word. Paul shows a difference between these who haven't heard and those who have heard. Those who have heard will be condemned by their own consciences while those whose conscience tells them to live right will not be condemned because they listened to it.

post 130. Paul says the law is for the lawless. Many reject the Word of God and don't have the Word written in their hearts. But the 10 Commandments are widely known and the gospel is widely known. Those who have heard will be judged by the knowledge they have rejected, but not by that which they have never heard.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

[But what of those who want to do right, something in them telling them to do right, but have never heard? Does God condemn these who have something within them that tells them to live right? No, giving them a home in heaven according to Ro2.12-16, but not as born again, not as a part of the Church. These are similar to Enoch, who also wasn't a part of the Church.

Right, they will be doing the lawn maintenance for our mansions.