***Another NAYC bombshell: Apostolic Steppin' for Jesus

[The Dean]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Still waiting for the scripture the establishes practice for dancers in worship. Surely, it must be there.

And, just because things are done decently and in order does not necessarily mean 'rehearsed beforehand', or it would then be necessary for all the gifts of the Spirit to be rehearsed (so, would you please inform Jesus that He needs to change how He does things when He comes to visit with those who gather in His Name?)

(She has a point there.)

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Hmm, maybe you should tell old mister JS Bach this, as he was writing very complex organ concertos, for the churches in which he was employed, long before there was America and the saloons.

You are correct. However, what fascinated Bach was an almost modern instrument. The first organs were used in ancient Greece with the "wind" being supplied either by water pressure (the famous Athenian water organs) or a small windmill. Later medieval church organs were powered by dozens of men pumping at the bellows. Winchester Cathedral has an impressive example of this.

Roman "organums" were used in the circuses and were the forerunners of today's circus organ. It is quite possible that Christian martyrs suffered while some airy tune similar to "The Show Must Go On" played.

And, of course they were used also in movie theaters and saloons. This was probably because of the thousands of year’s old tradition for providing "worldly" entertainment. The medieval church usage was really more of a tip of the hat to the old Roman ways than anything uniquely Christian.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Still waiting for the scripture the establishes practice for dancers in worship. Surely, it must be there. And, just because things are done decently and in order does not necessarily mean 'rehearsed beforehand', or it would then be necessary for all the gifts of the Spirit to be rehearsed (so, would you please inform Jesus that He needs to change how He does things when He comes to visit with those who gather in His Name?)

I think you would wait a very long time if you wanted a word-for-word example.

In ancient Israel the people danced for a lot of reasons - not just as an act of worship. Judges 21 mentions that the young women of Shiloh went out to dance - this was related to an annual feast but it seems from the text that this dancing was done separate from the worship inside the city.

The problem that I think many people struggle with comes down to a conflict over what's "in the Spirit" and what's "in the flesh." Old timers will remember how someone's dance or praise was criticized for being "in the flesh." We have judged and condemned one another along those lines, probably for as long as we've had spirit and flesh.

Was Saul "in the Spirit" when he stripped off his clothes and lay naked before Samuel? (1 Samuel 19:23-24). The Bible very clearly states that "the Spirit of God was upon him." Would you "dance" and "prophesy" in this manner? It is biblical, but I don't advise it.

The Hebrew people have preserved a great deal of tradition regarding their dancing, and "practice" or "rehearsal" is as old as the Bible. I don't think most Pentecostal churches would even allow a Jewish group to praise God with a dance in their services. Yet from Talmudic and Rabbinical sources we find them "practicing" and "rehearsing" and dancing before the Lord since at least the time of Ezra the Scribe.

The more spontaneous and ecstatic forms of dancing, like that seen in Pentecostal churches, have more in common with "prophesy" (1 Samuel 10:11-12 and 1 Samuel 19:23-24) which is reminiscent of the Bacchanalian rites of Israel's neighbors. Perhaps if we "practiced" more the Baptists and Church of Christ guys wouldn't compare us unfavorably with pagans so often.

[tv1a]

Just because someone operates in the Gifts of the Spirit doesn't mean it is done decently and in order. Paul had to establish guidelines for tongues and interpretation.

You have little wiggle room in using the argument if it's not in the Bible so you can't do it. A majority of your posted opinons are not in the Bible. You can't have it one way with a dress code then change your principle because you don't like the way someone prepares for a form of worship. If it isn't your personal preference, just say so. Don't try to spiritualize a principle you don't even apply.

This is a good example why religion blows chunks. James 4:8 says a double minded man is unstable in all his ways. When one's principle is compromised to conform to a preconcieved opinion, unstableness occurs. It is easier to live by Biblical principle in everything and be the light and salt God desires than to compromise principle and lose integrity.

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Still waiting for the scripture the establishes practice for dancers in worship. Surely, it must be there.

And, just because things are done decently and in order does not necessarily mean 'rehearsed beforehand', or it would then be necessary for all the gifts of the Spirit to be rehearsed (so, would you please inform Jesus that He needs to change how He does things when He comes to visit with those who gather in His Name?)

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

I have been walking in a cow pasture before and I did some stepping but there wasn't nothing Holy about what I stepped in.

LOLROTF! I've had this same experience. However, its been a few years.

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

That is not scripturally sound, LadyRev, as dancing is mentioned previously in scripture, right here:

Exodus 15:20
And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Just as a note, I don't see where they rehearsed beforehand, they were just rejoicing.

And then there is King David, who danced before the Lord with all his might. I don't find any mention of him rehearsing his 'praise dance' beforehand, either. In fact, in the scriptures where we find actual accounts of people dancing in worship to Almighty God, it appears to be spontaneous and unrehearsed.

Ah so I missed ONE previous scripture. I'll give you that one. I goofed up the search by missing a form of the word.

Even so, the point remains the same. There is nothing wrong with "rehearsed" dancing or "unrehearsed" dancing.

And...just because the world or sinners do something doesn't mean the church or christians can not do the same.

As for David, I never said he "rehearsed" his dance.

The point in mentioning David was in reference to comments about "dirty" dance moves and individual perception.

David's wife had a different perception. She criticized David's dancing and was punished by God for her criticism. Likewise, your perception of "stepping" is negative but others do not have the same perception. As for God's opinion, that remains to be seen now doesn't it?

If someone can worship God in "Steppin", who are we to criticize?

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Indeed, the music and singing was choreographed. Now, would you please show me where this same method was used when dancing in praise before the Lord?

Would you please show me where Jehoshaphat's singers did nothing more than sing, saying what they were instructed to say?

The BIBLE says they sang AND they praised...praise, includes dancing.

Can you show me where they DIDN'T dance as they PRAISED the beauty of holiness?

According to scripture, they didn't just simply "sing".

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

Why do you switch from 'step dancing' to 'stick drama', as if they were the same thing? It is very apparent that they are not. So, if YOUR youth group doesn't do the 'step dance' stuff, what is your point?

Because the arguments are the same.

Stick dramas originated in the world. They aren't some invention of the church!

Stick dramas are choreographed, directed, rehearsed, practiced, taught.

I understand that "consistency" is often a dream world among apostolics...but the truth is, in order to be consistent in the arguments against steppin, one has to be against stick dramas, as well as several other things with worldly origin and/or choreography involved.

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

You have missed the point. The Bible DOES talk about rehearsal for the singers and musicians. Nowhere does it speak of rehearsal for the dancers. So, those who defend choreographed dance as a form or worship to God have no scripture for their help.

Excuse me sister...

Please show me scripture that FORBIDS rehearsal for dancers.

And while you are at it, please show me specific scripture for other forms of worship among apostolics such as:

Running the aisles
Jumping the pews
Falling out on the floor
Rolling on the floor
Doing somersaults
Doing cartwheels

All of these things and more, do happen in apostolic churches. There is no scriptural support for any of it yet we do it.

Therefore, your argument against choreography based on lack of "scriptural help" is totally irrelevant.

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by tv1a

No I am applying principle across the board. Unlike picking and choosing where to apply principle, I choose to apply principle in every area.

Good luck with trying to get principle applied "across the board".

Some people simply enjoy the "pick and choose" game.

The minute you start to make too much sense, by applying principles across the board, they start whining and crying "FOUL".