What Are You Reading Currently, 2.0

[Scott Pitta]

Jehovah Jesus by C.H. Yadon came in the post today. It turns out to be signed by Yadon himself. Looks like it was published in 1952.

[n david]

Originally Posted by consapente89

Education of a Wandering Man- Louis L'Amour
Autobiography of Louis L'Amour.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by consapente89

I've not read those in particular but I have a couple at home. Have read them yet. Definitely would be a good purchase though.

Ok I just would rather read a commentary from a oneness perspective. I got Ken Raggio's but his was too basic, and he had some stuff in there that was a little far fetched (it could be true, but...)!

I appreciate you brother I will get the one on Colossians and see what he says. Through my studies I found some strong One has stuff through chapter 1:12-20, which only the NET gives justice "giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the saints’ inheritance in the light. [13] He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, [14] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. [15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, [16] for all things in heaven and on earth WERE CREATED IN HIM-all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers-all things WERE CREATED THROUGH HIM AND FOR HIM. [17] He himself is before all things and all things are HELD TOGETHER IN HIM. [18] He is the head of the body, the church, as well as the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in all things. [19] For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in the Son [20] and through him to reconcile all things to himself by making peace through the blood of his cross — through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven."

But if you study word meanings all those places that say "by" in the KJV should be rendered "in" Him. Which they use 2 different words "en" and "dia" which the last of the two shows forethought, not supporting of a pre existant son as I'm sure the translators of the KJV believed.

I'll check it out. Thanks Brother!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

But if you study word meanings all those places that say "by" in the KJV should be rendered "in" Him. Which they use 2 different words "en" and "dia" which the last of the two shows forethought, not supporting of a pre existant son as I'm sure the translators of the KJV believed.

I'll check it out. Thanks Brother!

G1722
ἐν,
III OF THE INSTRUMENT, MEANS or MANNER, ἐν πυρὶ πρήσαντες Il. 7.429; δῆσαι ἐνὶ δεσμῷ 5.386, cf. Od. 12.54, etc.; but in most cases the orig. sense may be traced, to put in the fire and burn, in fetters and bind, etc.; so ἐν πόνοις δαμέντα A. Pr. 425 (lyr.); ἔζευξα πρῶτος ἐν ζυγοῖσι κνώδαλα ib. 462; ἔργον ἐν κύβοις Ἄρης κρινεῖ Id. Th. 414; also ἐν ὀφθαλμοῖσιν or ἐν ὄμμασιν ὁρᾶσθαι, ἰδέσθαι,
1. to see with or before one's eyes, i.e. have the object in one's eye, Il. 3.306, Od. 10.385, etc.; ἔν τε τῇ ὄψει διαγιγνώσκειν καὶ ἐν τῇ ἀκοῇ Pl. Tht. 206a; also ἐν ὠσὶ νωμῶν ὄρνιθας A. Th. 25; also ἐν λιταῖς by prayers, S. Ph. 60; ἐν δόλῳ by deceit, ib. 102; ἐν λόγοις by words, A. Ch. 613 (lyr.); ἀπέκτειναν ἐν τῇ προφάσει ταύτῃ Lys. 13.12, cf. Antipho 5.59; ψαύειν ἐν κερτομίοις γλώσσαις S. Ant. 961 (lyr.); ἐν τοῖς ὁμοίοις νόμοις ποιήσαντες τὰς κρίσεις Th. 1.77; esp. with Verbs of showing, σημαίνειν ἐν ἱεροῖς καὶ οἰωνοῖς X. Cyr. 8.7.3; τὰ πραχθέντα.. ἐν.. ἐπιστολαῖς ἴστε ye know by letters, Th. 7.11; ἐν τῇδε ῥάβδῳ πάντα ποιήσεις Ezek. Exag. 132, cf. PMag.Osl. 1.108.
2. of a personal instrument, ἐν τῷ ἄρχοντι τῶν δαιμονίων ἐκβάλλει τὰ δαιμόνια Mat_9:34. (LSJ)

The word "en" is frequently used to denote the means or instrumentality by which something is done. In such cases, translating the word as "in" is actually misleading, whereas translating the word as "by" is more accurate.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

G1722
ἐν,
III OF THE INSTRUMENT, MEANS or MANNER, ἐν πυρὶ πρήσαντες Il. 7.429; δῆσαι ἐνὶ δεσμῷ 5.386, cf. Od. 12.54, etc.; but in most cases the orig. sense may be traced, to put in the fire and burn, in fetters and bind, etc.; so ἐν πόνοις δαμέντα A. Pr. 425 (lyr.); ἔζευξα πρῶτος ἐν ζυγοῖσι κνώδαλα ib. 462; ἔργον ἐν κύβοις Ἄρης κρινεῖ Id. Th. 414; also ἐν ὀφθαλμοῖσιν or ἐν ὄμμασιν ὁρᾶσθαι, ἰδέσθαι,
1. to see with or before one's eyes, i.e. have the object in one's eye, Il. 3.306, Od. 10.385, etc.; ἔν τε τῇ ὄψει διαγιγνώσκειν καὶ ἐν τῇ ἀκοῇ Pl. Tht. 206a; also ἐν ὠσὶ νωμῶν ὄρνιθας A. Th. 25; also ἐν λιταῖς by prayers, S. Ph. 60; ἐν δόλῳ by deceit, ib. 102; ἐν λόγοις by words, A. Ch. 613 (lyr.); ἀπέκτειναν ἐν τῇ προφάσει ταύτῃ Lys. 13.12, cf. Antipho 5.59; ψαύειν ἐν κερτομίοις γλώσσαις S. Ant. 961 (lyr.); ἐν τοῖς ὁμοίοις νόμοις ποιήσαντες τὰς κρίσεις Th. 1.77; esp. with Verbs of showing, σημαίνειν ἐν ἱεροῖς καὶ οἰωνοῖς X. Cyr. 8.7.3; τὰ πραχθέντα.. ἐν.. ἐπιστολαῖς ἴστε ye know by letters, Th. 7.11; ἐν τῇδε ῥάβδῳ πάντα ποιήσεις Ezek. Exag. 132, cf. PMag.Osl. 1.108.
2. of a personal instrument, ἐν τῷ ἄρχοντι τῶν δαιμονίων ἐκβάλλει τὰ δαιμόνια Mat_9:34. (LSJ)

The word "en" is frequently used to denote the means or instrumentality by which something is done. In such cases, translating the word as "in" is actually misleading, whereas translating the word as "by" is more accurate.

Let's use 1:16 as an example and it's the same throughout "For BY him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY him, and for him."

The first by is the word "en" which is rendered in 1514 times while only being used as by 116.

But now that next "by" comes from a different word "dia" or "διά". Which means a lot of things but in this place means "through, the ground or reason by which something is or is not done, by reason of, on account of, because of for this reason, therefore, on this account"

Which is showing "a forethought, plan and reason." Not some pre existant Son, or Logo's` for that matter.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Let's use 1:16 as an example and it's the same throughout "For BY him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY him, and for him."

The first by is the word "en" which is rendered in 1514 times while only being used as by 116.

But now that next "by" comes from a different word "dia" or "διά". Which means a lot of things but in this place means "through, the ground or reason by which something is or is not done, by reason of, on account of, because of for this reason, therefore, on this account"

Which is showing "a forethought, plan and reason." Not some pre existant Son, or Logo's` for that matter.

If dia means "by reason of, on account of, or the ground or reason by which something is done", then "by" is an acceptable and accurate translation.

Same thing with "en". I just posted the definition and usages of the Greek word "en" when it speaks of the instrumentality or means BY WHICH something is done. Therefore "by" is perfectly fine. "In" would actually obscure the intended meaning.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If dia means "by reason of, on account of, or the ground or reason by which something is done", then "by" is an acceptable and accurate translation.

Same thing with "en". I just posted the definition and usages of the Greek word "en" when it speaks of the instrumentality or means BY WHICH something is done. Therefore "by" is perfectly fine. "In" would actually obscure the intended meaning.

But after I found this even the NET Translatea it that way "for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him — all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers — all things were created through him and for him."

Making the translation the world's were made by Him, and the world's were made in Him is saying two different things altogether. Especially when you can see theres forethought and reason in mind. I don't know for you but Im going to do a word for word study of Hebrews next, because I believe this to be synonymous throughout the NT.

[Scott Pitta]

Greek prepositions are best left to people who actually read Greek. They are more complex than prepositions in English.

[berkeley]

So you side with Esaias?

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

Greek prepositions are best left to people who actually read Greek. They are more complex than prepositions in English.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

But after I found this even the NET Translatea it that way "for all things in heaven and on earth were created in him — all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers — all things were created through him and for him."

Making the translation the world's were made by Him, and the world's were made in Him is saying two different things altogether. Especially when you can see theres forethought and reason in mind. I don't know for you but Im going to do a word for word study of Hebrews next, because I believe this to be synonymous throughout the NT.

Colossians 1:16 ESV
(16) For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.


Colossians 1:16 Geneva
(16) For by him were all things created, which are in heauen, and which are in earth, thinges visible and inuisible: whether they be Thrones or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him,

Colossians 1:16 SRV
(16) Porque por él fueron criadas todas las cosas que están en los cielos, y que están en la tierra, visibles é invisibles; sean tronos, sean dominios, sean principados, sean potestades; todo fué criado por él y para él.


Colossians 1:16 Coverdale
(16) For by him were all thinges created, that are in heauen and earth, thinges vysible and thinges inuysible, whether they be maiesties or lordshippes, ether rules or powers: All thinges are created by him and in him,

I posted the definition regarding the use of the preposition "en" and its meanings, particularly when speaking of instrumentality or means BY WHICH something is accomplished.

Jesus Christ is the ONE who created all things. Furthermore, God created all things BY Christ, because according to Paul Christ is the WISDOM OF GOD, and the Scriptures declare that God made all things BY WISDOM. Moreover, Christ is the WORD made flesh, who created all things, and the Bible teaches clearly that God created all things BY HIS WORD. So not only do I have the grammar on my side, I have the THEOLOGY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT and of THE OLD TESTAMENT on my side. IF however you eliminate the idea that God created all things BY Christ, but instead have them created only "in" Christ, Christ is no longer the CREATOR but rather the CONTAINER.

Which makes no sense.