For those that left the UPC...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Why turn to extra-biblical sources? Why not just stick with scripture?

To show it is not arguing from silence, since you missed my point which agreed with these men, when I did not argue from silence but from Simon's reaction. It is showing that it is far from arguing from silence, as no reputable scholar would do such a thing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yet another no tonguer example.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And more of that laying on of hands in order than another person receive the Holy Ghost.

You mean, another example where tongues or no tongues are not mentioned either way. Actually, you are hereby arguing from silence. I would not prove tongues with this example or Acts 8, remember. but this example does not say they did not speak in tongues, so you cannot use this as proof that some never spoke in tongues when they were Spirit filled. That is my point.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You mean, another example where tongues or no tongues are not mentioned either way. Actually, you are hereby arguing from silence. I would not prove tongues with this example or Acts 8, remember. but this example does not say they did not speak in tongues, so you cannot use this as proof that some never spoke in tongues when they were Spirit filled. That is my point.

Right, another example of Holy Ghost infilling and no tongues mentioned.

Are you aware of any scripture which teaches that tongues would always accompany Holy Ghost infilling? I realize there is the Acts 10 event, but scripture which teaches that tongues will be the evidence of Holy Ghost infilling.

For many years I heard Acts 2:38 modified to include "with the evidence of speaking in tongues", but of course that's not part of that passage...or any other passage I'm aware of.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Right, another example of Holy Ghost infilling and no tongues mentioned.

But are you getting the point that it neither proves nor disproves tongues is initial evidence?

Are you aware of any scripture which teaches that tongues would always accompany Holy Ghost infilling?

I already said there is only ONE verse that deals with ANYTHING that occurs at initial infilling. The verse in Acts 10. It does not say it will occur every time, but it simply states a fact that when the people spoke in tongues, the others knew they were Spirit filled, because that is what happened to them in Acts 2. No other verse TOUCHES THE ISSUE one way or the other.

All we have is Acts 10 for the issue, and nothing anywhere else either way.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Right, another example of Holy Ghost infilling and no tongues mentioned.

Are you aware of any scripture which teaches that tongues would always accompany Holy Ghost infilling? I realize there is the Acts 10 event, but scripture which teaches that tongues will be the evidence of Holy Ghost infilling.

For many years I heard Acts 2:38 modified to include "with the evidence of speaking in tongues", but of course that's not part of that passage...or any other passage I'm aware of.

I cited examples from Acts chapters 2, 8, 9, 10, and 19 that showed a specific example of people receiving an experience known as the Holy Ghost Baptism, the Spirit coming or falling upon, receiving the Spirit, and being filled with the Spirit. In Acts 2, 10, and 19 tongues are mentioned. In Acts 9 (Saul/Paul) receiving tongues are not mentioned. In Acts 8 tongues are not mentioned but implied by something that accompanied the HGB --something that was not healing, miracles, exorcisms or great joy-- something that probably was tongues.

It's important that we do not read too much into these instances either by the mention of speaking with tongues or the non-mention of speaking with tongues. These examples are sufficient in the minds of some to establish the "initial physical evidence" doctrine (in the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established) and are not sufficient to cause others to come to that conclusion. Let's show some charity to those who may not agree with us here.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Right, another example of Holy Ghost infilling and no tongues mentioned.

Are you aware of any scripture which teaches that tongues would always accompany Holy Ghost infilling? I realize there is the Acts 10 event, but scripture which teaches that tongues will be the evidence of Holy Ghost infilling.

For many years I heard Acts 2:38 modified to include "with the evidence of speaking in tongues", but of course that's not part of that passage...or any other passage I'm aware of.

Another modification I have seen is people add the words in Acts 2:37 What must we do "to be saved". It doesn't say that.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Another modification I have seen is people add the words in Acts 2:37 What must we do "to be saved". It doesn't say that.

What specifically do you think they were asking in Acts 2:37?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What specifically do you think they were asking in Acts 2:37?

How do we receive this gift is what I think they were wondering. Not how do we get to heaven.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What specifically do you think they were asking in Acts 2:37?

Our Messiah came and we missed Him?
What do we do now so we don't miss out on His kingdom?

or

So the Messiah has come and been exalted to the right hand of the Father and has poured out His Spirit as He promised --how do we also receive that Promise of the Father?

[Falla39]

[QUOTE=Sam;919012]Our Messiah came and we missed Him?
What do we do now so we don't miss out on His kingdom?

or

So the Messiah has come and been exalted to the right hand of the Father and has poured out His Spirit as He promised --how do we also receive that Promise of the Father? QUOTE

Acts 2: 32-40
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.