Gay Pastor's(xupc)recent Letter to the UPCI ! ! !

[berkeley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan

Originally Posted by brad2723

Excuses may not change God's created design but nature has. Once again I ask the question that everyone is avoiding. Who is the hermaphrodite biblically allowed to be in a relationship with? Hermaphroditism is not an excuse; it is an anatomical deviation from God's original creation or, as ManOfWord stated, an anatomic deviation from "A's" and "B's" of God's initial design.

"Nature" is God's created design and all of nature was corrupted by Adam's sin. Thus, any aberrations (hermaphroditism, birth defects, disease, etc.) that occur are contrary to God's created design.

Originally Posted by brad2723

It has a lot to do with my situation because it proves that God's original creative plan regarding male and female has been altered genetically; likely as a result of man's fallen state. If there is a standard rule that applies to all and is specifically applied to homosexuals (i.e. "God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve) then that rule must be applicable to all of God's creation. It is NOT applicable to hermaphrodites who ARE God's creation.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality and is nothing more than a red herring. Hermaphroditism is a birth defect - like being born missing a hand or being born blind or being born with Down Syndrome. Homosexual orientation, like heterosexual orientation ("orientation" being narrowly defined as the gender object of sexual/romantic attraction) develops during childhood and is non-existent at birth.

Also, if outward/anatomical variations can take place, and if chromosomal variations can take place, why is it so hard to accept that orientation variations can exist even if they do not reflect God's original creative plan?

Because "orientation" develops during childhood.

Do you believe heterosexuals are born that way or do you believe heterosexuality is learned? If you believe it is learned then how is it that the vast majority of XX individuals are attracted to XY individuals and how is it that the majority of XY individuals are attracted to XX individuals? This proves that orientation is more than just a learned behavior. There is something genetic that causes one to be orientated to a specific sex.

As I said above, sexual orientations develop during childhood and God's created design is that mating should occur between male and female. Thus, God would obviously have created the first two humans with the desire to mate with each other. As for the progeny of those first two humans, the normal (God-designed) development is for males to develop a desire to mate with females and for females to desire to mate with males. Any other desire (males desiring to mate with males, females desiring to mate with females, adults desiring to mate with pre-pubescent children, humans desiring to mate with animals) is an aberration, something contrary to God's created design (and, thus, "unnatural" and abnormal).

Being sexually attracted to a male (XY) is only considered homosexual when we can identify the chromosomal sex of the individual with the attraction. If the individual is also XY then we consider the attraction to be homosexual in orientation. Therefore, if there is a genetic influence the causes MOST XY's to be attracted to XX's just as MOST XY's are born with a penis and testicles, it is just as likely that an XY can be genetically influenced to be orientated to an XY just as an XY can be born without a penis and WITH a vagina.

So, what are you suggesting here, that before one determines whether one is heterosexual or homosexual one should undergo some sort of chromosonal testing to determine whether one is really male or female?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't see how "giving them over to" is judgement. It sounds more like what Paul is saying is that God gave them up

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Or that God simply allowed them to suffer the natural consequences of their idolatry.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

And cursed for it

Well, Noah's grandson Caanan was cursed for it.

Allow me to jump in here momentarily.... if I may.

EVERYTHING we do, whether in word or deed, entails a personal decision. No, I do NOT believe that homosexuality is something which is developed during ones childhood. Simply put, IMHO, one chooses, of their own volition, to engage in an homosexual act, or NOT! Its just that simple, albeit one who elects to do so will certainly devise all sorts of reasoning for justification of their actions.

I learned many years ago that every act I undertake involves a decision. And it is my choice, ALONE, as to whether or not I choose to do something. To suggest that one is born with homosexual tendencies, or that this is something which is acquired/formed during ones childhood, is nothing more than assigning something other than PERSONAL CHOICE to support an act which stands in stark contrast to the distinctive difference which God instituted between the male and female at the time of their creation.

This is my personal view of this matter.

Originally Posted by Chan

"Nature" is God's created design and all of nature was corrupted by Adam's sin. Thus, any aberrations (hermaphroditism, birth defects, disease, etc.) that occur are contrary to God's created design.

But not sinful?

Originally Posted by Chan

Homosexual orientation, like heterosexual orientation ("orientation" being narrowly defined as the gender object of sexual/romantic attraction) develops during childhood and is non-existent at birth.

Because "orientation" develops during childhood.

As I said above, sexual orientations develop during childhood and God's created design is that mating should occur between male and female. Thus, God would obviously have created the first two humans with the desire to mate with each other. As for the progeny of those first two humans, the normal (God-designed) development is for males to develop a desire to mate with females and for females to desire to mate with males. Any other desire (males desiring to mate with males, females desiring to mate with females, adults desiring to mate with pre-pubescent children, humans desiring to mate with animals) is an aberration, something contrary to God's created design (and, thus, "unnatural" and abnormal).

Please clarify for me. First you say that "homosexual orientation, like heterosexual orientation, develops during childhood and is non-existant at birth." You then go on to say that the "God-designed" development is for females to desire males and visa versa. Are you saying, then, that orientation is not present at birth but develops later on? If so, are you suggesting that because it develops later on that it is somehow not genetically/naturally pre-determined?

Originally Posted by Chan

Or that God simply allowed them to suffer the natural consequences of their idolatry.

The natural consequence of smoking is lung cancer. Does that make lung cancer sinful OR the consequence of something sinful? We can't judge everyone who has lung cancer simply because it is often the consequence of something that is considered to be wrong/sinful. Can we?

Just because the consequence of idolatry led the Gentiles of Romans 1 to be turned over to affections that were not natural to them does not mean that those with a geneticically predetermined oreintation which deviates from the norm can be judged as sinful.

Originally Posted by brad2723

But not sinful?

Sin (whether in thought or action) is disobedience to the commands of God and is always a choice. When the Bible talks about homosexuality as sin, it refers to the thoughts and actions (in other words, embracing and acting on one's unnatural same-sex attraction).