Apostolic Litumus Test: Do you affirm - Yes or no?

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

You just took the pitch the Ron through and hit is over the fence. That is whatcha call a HOME RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well said Baron.

That may be a walk off home run, there just isn't anyplace else to go with that false statement.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I guess I am missing the point. NO WHERE in scripture is it mandated that baptism is essential, but I believe every believer needs to be baptized.

Interesting analogy, but one thing. Mud is a tangible thing. Being cleansed of sin is not tangible. Check it out in study of the original word in the Bible used for baptism. Nothing about it says it is an acutal spiritual cleanse but it is actually a physical identification unto Christ. The Jews use the Mikvah as thier baptisimal pool so to say. In the Bible those doing the baptizing were Jewish and they knew that baptism is the open indenification that you are now following this teaching. Mikvah washing is done for different reasons. One of the main ones is that when some converts they cleanse in the Mikvah as a sign that they are now a Jew. I think if their is a question in a persons mind that baptism is essential to make heaven then it needs to be completed. Personally I want all of my family to be baptized.

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Let's see what clever explanation y'all come up with for this scripture.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Both remission and forgiveness are the English translation of the single Greek noun aphesis or verb aphiemi.

Better find another way to explain that one.

Let me see how well this argument works on this tidbit: Well, you really need to study it out using the Greek. Strong's isn't good enough because it's just a dictionary. You have to study it out using a lexicon, along with the context it's being used in, to really understand why the same word is translated two different ways.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Rico

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Let's see what clever explanation y'all come up with for this scripture.

Again the word originally used for baptism has tons of meanings Rico. It could read like this, based upon the original word used....He that believeth and is drowned shall be saved....He that believeth and is dipped shall be saved....He that believeth and is washed.....there are more too. These are just a few. I think that all believers should be baptized, but no scripture I have read makes it manditory, but if I were to preach I would strongly urge it, but can not out of being honest with my self say you gotta in order to be saved, but because you are saved you oughta do it.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Both remission and forgiveness are the English translation of the single Greek noun aphesis or verb aphiemi.

Better find another way to explain that one.

This has not registered at all on many in this forum ... the the Apostles wrote this using one and the same word ...to mean pardon..

If one reads the bible in Spanish ... which we did growing up... there is no confusion ....

aphesis .... is translated in all verses in the Reina Valera w/ the same word "perdon".... The NIV does this also.

That is why I find this KJV inspired false doctrine of separating both words (forgiveness vs. remission) to mean two separate ideas as being very silly ....

Even Dr. Segraves acknowledges this in a symposium ... and how it relates to the contradictions not only found in presenting this as doctrine but in the UPCI's AOF:

The Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International, under the heading "Repentance and Conversion," presently reads: "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins:1

The context concerns conversion, not the obtaining of forgiveness by a born-again believer, says nothing about water baptism, and would lead one to believe that repentance alone is sufficient to produce forgiveness of sins.2

A study of the Greek text would indicate that "forgiveness" and "remission" are synonyms, since in the King James Version both words are translated from the same Greek word, aphesis.3

Does the assertion that, on the one hand, forgiveness is obtained by repentance alone and, on the other hand, remission of sins is obtained by baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ present a contradiction in the Articles of Faith of the U.P.C.I.?

Should there be an examination of the somewhat popular teaching that sins are forgiven at repentance but are not remitted until water baptism?

The Articles of Faith offer no Scripture to support the statement that "pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance."

While the author thoroughly examined the relationship of both repentance and water baptism as they relate to remission of sins in the text of Acts 2:38, he did not discuss the fact that the Fundamental Doctrine of the U.PC.I. does not necessarily endorse this idea.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

The only thing I might have a question about is tongues being the evidence of the HG. It is an evidence but not the only one. You will receive power after the HG has come upon you. I beleive the tongue is the witness that the HG has fallen upon a person, but I can not say that the only evidence of the HG is tongues. I guess saying the initial evidence is ok with me

Pentecostals don't teach tongues is the only evidence. They teach it is the initial evidence. Subsequent evidence that the Spirit is still working in your life would be the fruit

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I voted yes, but only cause I agreed with the majority of it. I could have just as easily voted No. Tongues as AN inital evidence I can agree with, but can not agree that it is the only evidence.

What are other "initial" evidences and does one have to have them all or any one only?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Fruit of the Spirit ... Galatians 5.

That would be signs or evidence of the Spirit working in you, as opposed to the initial infilling.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This has not registered at all on many in this forum ... the the Apostles wrote this using one and the same word ...to mean pardon..

If one reads the bible in Spanish ... which we did growing up... there is no confusion ....

aphesis .... is translated in all verses in the Reina Valera w/ the same word "perdon".... The NIV does this also.

That is why I find this KJV inspired false doctrine of separating both words (forgiveness vs. remission) to mean two separate ideas as being very silly ....

Even Dr. Segraves acknowledges this in a symposium ... and how it relates to the contradictions not only found in presenting this as doctrine but in the UPCI's AOF:

You know when you quote Segraves I am all ears.

[Praxeas]

I think some of you just argue for the sake of arguing