David Bernard Weighs In on General Board Decision

[Ron]

Originally Posted by CC1

Ron,

Do you also have a hard time picturing the disciples fishing naked? They did.


I also have a hard time picturing that I came to Church with long hair, & watching Trinity Preachers on TV talking about the Trinity.
When I got the Holy Ghost "things changed" as I am sure the disciples now Apostles probably stopped that practice.

I have a feeling most clean shaven UPC men would not feel very comfortable if Jesus showed up today since he had facial hair and was not wearing a dark suit.

I am sure that he would wear attire that was appropriate for the culture & time.

As for Beards, yes he probably had one, but I won't until Jesus tells me to grow one.

I personally dislike beards.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Ron

I am sure that he would wear attire that was appropriate for the culture & time.

As for Beards, yes he probably had one, but I won't until Jesus tells me to grow one.

I personally dislike beards.

I don't care for beards either but my point is we tend to extend our cultural norm from just being that to being a matter of "right and wrong".

I have not done an exhaustive anthropoligical study of every day life in the New Testament days but I imagine many aspects of it would be shocking to 21st century Americans and Pentecostals in particular.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by CC1

Ron,

Do you also have a hard time picturing the disciples fishing naked? They did.

I have a feeling most clean shaven UPC men would not feel very comfortable if Jesus showed up today since he had facial hair and was not wearing a dark suit.

How do you know he had a beard?

Yeah it was culture at that time , but not everyone had one...so how do you know he had one???

[Kutless]

Jesus didn't tell me to put on a coat today, but it sure is cold.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by scotty

How do you know he had a beard?

Yeah it was culture at that time , but not everyone had one...so how do you know he had one???

Pretty hard to "pluck" a clean shaven face.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by CC1

I don't care for beards either but my point is we tend to extend our cultural norm from just being that to being a matter of "right and wrong".

I have not done an exhaustive anthropoligical study of every day life in the New Testament days but I imagine many aspects of it would be shocking to 21st century Americans and Pentecostals in particular.

True, but Holiness I believe is not just rules or clothing, but principles--and that never changes!

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Ron

True, but Holiness I believe is not just rules or clothing, but principles--and that never changes!

You have hit the nail on the head. That is why folks should not get so wrapped up in a particular application of modesty that the equate it to holiness. There are many dangers in cookie cutter application of those princples. In my opinion old time Oneness Pentecost has put themselves in a box by taking applications of principle decided by Pentecostal Pioneer half a century ago and made them into absolutes. Many do not make sense and require great leaps in logic to make the application. This hinders the gospel as it is a stumbling block to people.

UPC women of today, even AMF women, dress scandulously by victorian standards. Back then it was shameful for a womans ankles to show.

[Encryptus]

For what its worth,
Early Christian attitudes

* St Clement of Alexandria
o "The hair of the chin showed him to be a man." St Clement of Alexandria (c.195, E), 2.271

o "How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest--a sign of strength and rule." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.275

o "This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.276

o "It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.277

* St Cyprian
o "In their manners, there was no discipline. In men, their beards were defaced." St Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.438

o "The beard must not be plucked. 'You will not deface the figure of your beard'." (Leviticus 19:27) St. Cyprian, 5.553

* Lactantius
o "The nature of the beard contributes in an incredible degree to distinguish the maturity of bodies, or to distinguish the sex, or to contribute to the beauty of manliness and strength." Lactantius (c. 304-314, W), 7.288

* Apostolic Constitutions
o "Men may not destroy the hair of their beards and unnaturally change the form of a man. For the Law says, “You will not deface your beards.” For God the Creator has made this decent for women, but has determined that it is unsuitable for men." Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c.390, E) 7.392.

Furthermore, in later centuries the pope ordered priests to start being clean shaven around the same time as he mandated celibacy, both were attempts to emasculate the priesthood.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

For what its worth,
Early Christian attitudes

* St Clement of Alexandria
o "The hair of the chin showed him to be a man." St Clement of Alexandria (c.195, E), 2.271

o "How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest--a sign of strength and rule." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.275

o "This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.276

o "It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.277

* St Cyprian
o "In their manners, there was no discipline. In men, their beards were defaced." St Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.438

o "The beard must not be plucked. 'You will not deface the figure of your beard'." (Leviticus 19:27) St. Cyprian, 5.553

* Lactantius
o "The nature of the beard contributes in an incredible degree to distinguish the maturity of bodies, or to distinguish the sex, or to contribute to the beauty of manliness and strength." Lactantius (c. 304-314, W), 7.288

* Apostolic Constitutions
o "Men may not destroy the hair of their beards and unnaturally change the form of a man. For the Law says, “You will not deface your beards.” For God the Creator has made this decent for women, but has determined that it is unsuitable for men." Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c.390, E) 7.392.

Furthermore, in later centuries the pope ordered priests to start being clean shaven around the same time as he mandated celibacy, both were attempts to emasculate the priesthood.

Ouch! Sometimes reality is a bad shock to people who have ridden their hobby horses until the wood is smooth and worn.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by CC1

Pretty hard to "pluck" a clean shaven face.

Not saying it never grew, there were points where he was in the wilderness for a time, etc.etc. When I go to deer camp and stay for a week or two I rarely shave, but I do not wear a beard.

I just wonder if he "wore" one.