Old way of Holiness Standard do we need to keep?

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by robert

Children obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Ephesians....How many things can be said about this one scripture. Volumes! You as a parent are the one that decides what is acceptable attire for your children. Unless you just say...children I trust you to make the right choices. How can you trust them unless they are taught what is right and what is wrong. So whether you want to admit it, you as a parent must decide and enforce what is proper and improper for your children.

Wanna hear something funny? While I've raised my children in the UPC all their lives, I've always abided by my own standards except for a period of time when I was a member of the choir, but even during that time, I never subjected my daughter to 'standards' as taught by the UPC.

That said, she is now 14. She hasn't had her hair cut in almost 3 years. She reads her Bible faithfully, as well as church attendance. She is in the altar praying with her peers. All she has to do is get rid of her pants and she'll be an ultra-con.....LOL!

But I allow her to follow her own beliefs. I've taught her to live by her convictions. At her age, she is close to being responsible for her own salvation. I'm proud of her.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter

Like Randy, I continue to wait for the answer on this one.

Why won't the proponents of "old way of holiness" answer this question??? Just how far do you go back, and who gets to decide?

The correct answer is probably "The New Testament" except that an UC cannot say this because they cannot then answer the question as to why we're not wearing robes and sandals and riding donkeys. As soon as they bring up the word "culture" to describe why we're not currently doing those things THEN they have no answer as to why we all need to look like were "lost in the 50's tonight".

[scotty]

So what is the answer?

Who is right and who is wrong?

Are we left to determine holiness for ourselves?

[OneAccord]

Very good question, I believe we should model ourselves after the new testemant church that the apostles were building.

Its easy (and tempting) to look back into history for a model of the New Testament Church. And, the model is there. But, in looking back, we have to ask ourselves: Is this the plan for the church of the last days? We mistakenly think (or want to think) the NT Church was the perfect example of what God wants of His church, but, this simply isn't the case. The early church was full of division and sin. Just look how many time Paul found it necessary to rebuke and chasten the early church. In fact, an honest survey of the early church reveals are very similar view of the modern day church.

Our model cannot be the early church, but, rather, its Founder, Jesus Christ. He is our model and our example of what God wants His church- His people- to be. Even if the early church was a better model, we still do not get a clear picture of what God plans for us.

Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

The modern-day church (latter house) is greater than the early church (former house), according to this prophecy. But we see the same problems today as Paul encountered in the 1st Century Church. So, other than Jesus Himself, we have no clear pattern for the church of today.

But, we do, Jesus Himself. And, we catch glimpses of the last days church throughout the Bible.

Does this church exist? Yes, as long as WE, the church, strive to be the model of God's Church. We should not, (and really, can't) look to the past as a model of the church. Jesus said No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Looking to the past halts our forward progression. Paul adds: Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.Phl 3:13-14
The "prize", our objective is in front of us, not behind us. People say "Back to Pentecost!". But revival is not behind us. Its a head. The American Pentecostal Movement has been blessed with Revival many times in its history. There is, at least one more major move of God ahead- A Revival of Restoration. We may miss it if we're looking back to the "good ol' days". In the midst that revival, we will finally see the emergence of what God really wants for His people-
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by scotty

But the Word of God has not changed has it?

wouldn't His word still mean the same now as it did then?

No God's words have not changed. However people attribute the 'oldways' as being Gods words because they seem to be listed in the Bible. First, I dissagree with the interpretation of many of them not because I refuse to see it cause I am open to the convictions. The men speaking about the things or what many say they are talking about were done in teaching. Much of what is being said is a missinterpretaion of the truth, IMO.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Its easy (and tempting) to look back into history for a model of the New Testament Church. And, the model is there. But, in looking back, we have to ask ourselves: Is this the plan for the church of the last days? We mistakenly think (or want to think) the NT Church was the perfect example of what God wants of His church, but, this simply isn't the case. The early church was full of division and sin. Just look how many time Paul found it necessary to rebuke and chasten the early church. In fact, an honest survey of the early church reveals are very similar view of the modern day church.

Our model cannot be the early church, but, rather, its Founder, Jesus Christ. He is our model and our example of what God wants His church- His people- to be. Even if the early church was a better model, we still do not get a clear picture of what God plans for us.

Hag 2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.

The modern-day church (latter house) is greater than the early church (former house), according to this prophecy. But we see the same problems today as Paul encountered in the 1st Century Church. So, other than Jesus Himself, we have no clear pattern for the church of today.

But, we do, Jesus Himself. And, we catch glimpses of the last days church throughout the Bible.

Does this church exist? Yes, as long as WE, the church, strive to be the model of God's Church. We should not, (and really, can't) look to the past as a model of the church. Jesus said No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. Looking to the past halts our forward progression. Paul adds: Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.Phl 3:13-14
The "prize", our objective is in front of us, not behind us. People say "Back to Pentecost!". But revival is not behind us. Its a head. The American Pentecostal Movement has been blessed with Revival many times in its history. There is, at least one more major move of God ahead- A Revival of Restoration. We may miss it if we're looking back to the "good ol' days". In the midst that revival, we will finally see the emergence of what God really wants for His people-
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

So what then was the point in all the scripture? why not just write about Jesus life and the prophecies and not mess with including the teachings of Paul.

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by scotty

Are we left to determine holiness for ourselves?

Well, in a manner of speaking, yes. We are to determine holiness for ourselves. You see, keeping "standards", no matter how "holiness",doesn't make us holy. And, as someone else has said, "holiness" cannot be legislated. Standards can be, but "standards" and "holiness" are not one and the same.
We are made "Holiness unto the Lord" by His Bllood. "Holiness" is what He has done for and in us.

"Standards" are the principles that we develop through the Word, and by the leadership of the Holy Spirit, that helps us to maintain the Holiness God gives us. Think of the Parable of the talents. "Holiness" are the talents God entrusts to us. The Chritstain principles are the ways that we maintain those "talents".

But, yes, we are to determine "holiness" for ourselves with, of course help from the Word, and the Holy Ghost which, incidently includes the 5-fold ministry.

WE determine holiness for ourselves by:

The Word-

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Hbr 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The Holy Spirit-

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Ministry -

Eph 4:11-14 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

[scotty]

So it is left to each individual and their walk with God?

Then there is no right or wrong.

Doesn't that statement itself just sound wrong? What about "He is not a God of confussion"?

So then what truly is the argument about? How is it wrong for some to say that to teach holiness standards is wrong, yet also say it is up to the person? You laid it upon the Ministry also. So if God gives the Minisrty what is needed to perfect and edify the Body then who has the right to say they are wrong for having dress standards or jewelry standards or hair standards?

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by scotty

So what then was the point in all the scripture? why not just write about Jesus life and the prophecies and not mess with including the teachings of Paul.

Because we'd be absolutely lost without Paul's teaching. Paul left a blueprint by which we are to build God's Church. Pauls teaching is every bit the Word of God as was Jesus' Words and the prophecies. But we have to bear in mind that Pauls writings were primarily written to the early church. Some things are not applicable for our day, as least not in the way that Paul wrote them. For example, Paul gave instruction on how masters were to treat their slaves. That may have been appliclable in the 1800's but those instructions aren't applicable in the way Paul wrote them for today. However, even those can be applied to the employer/employee relationship of today- within reason.

So, we have to decide for ourselves (with the help of the Holy Spirit) what is, and what is not, applicable to us today. Paul said this: 1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. He also said 1Cr 7:6 But I speak this by permission, [and] not of commandment. Some things He wrote was "Thus saith the Lord". Some things were his opinion or of a cultural nature. How do we know the difference? Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Jesus said He would leave us His Spirit to guide us. Follow Him.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by scotty

So it is left to each individual and their walk with God?

Absolutely! God wants us to be an army of individuals- not an army of robots that all do, say, think and act the same. We are individuals, free-will, thinking, intelligent individuals that have been filled with His Spirit. His Spirit, Jesus said, will lead us into the truth. If we ren't discovering truth,then, we aren't being lead by the Spirit. Its that simple.

Then there is no right or wrong.

Of course there is right. And there is wrong. But does it always have to be that what is right for me, must also be right for you? What is wrong for me has to be wrong for you as well? Look at it this way. Circumcision. Peter preached that men had to be circumcised after the Law. Paul did not preach that. Who was right? They both were. Because their respective ministies were directed to two different cultures. Paul spoke of some who "ate meat" and those who didn't. Who was right? They both were in that they were serving God according to their convictions. Convictions differ. I have one against debating the Scriptures. I believe it is wrong to do so. Others feel it is okay. Who's right, and who is wrong? I tell you who is wrong- anyone who isn't led by the Spirit to conform (not to standards) by to His divine image.

Doesn't that statement itself just sound wrong? What about "He is not a God of confussion"?

God is not the author of confusion, that is true. Then why this long thread? Because people think to follow God we all have to be mindless robots with no independent thinking that just "obey" because they must obey. We obey Gods Word, we listen to His Spirit. In so doing, we are not confused. I'm not, in the least. I try to seek the leadership of His Spirit in all I do. I study His Word for what It says to me, and not for what somebody tells me it says or means. Read the Book for what it says, not for what someone thinks it says or for what we want it to say. Its really that simple. And not confusing at all!

So then what truly is the argument about? How is it wrong for some to say that to teach holiness standards is wrong, yet also say it is up to the person? You laid it upon the Ministry also. So if God gives the Minisrty what is needed to perfect and edify the Body then who has the right to say they are wrong for having dress standards or jewelry standards or hair standards?

There is no argument- except for those who just love to argue. I don't know that anyone has said "teaching standards is wrong". We can teach whatever we feel the Lord leads us to, but, don't expect people to swallow it "hook, line and sinker" just because we say so. Two things have to agree: The Spirit and Truth. If I hear someone preaching what He says is truth, He has to have Bible for that truth. And the Spirit within me bears witness with that truth. Then, I follow the Voice of the Holy Spirit to that truth.

We have the right, no, the duty, to preach Truth. Again, Word and Spirit must agree. Jhn 17:17 1Jo 5:6. We have the right to preach whatever standards we feel we need to preach. But, the question is...does that Standard pass the Bible test? It must rest squarely in Scripture, without interpretation. If its doesn't than its mere tradition and must be preached as such.