Water baptism, can you agree with this statement? - Page 31

tbpew · #**301** 10-04-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

ah ... the 3 steppers and their analogies ... which one is it ... baptism is the death, burial ? Is repentance death? Why does Paul, Roman 6, say baptism represents all 3 ... death, burial and resurrection?

TBP, you are articulate but please understand that repeating what you believe and stating analogies and typologies that excite you ... do not doctrine make.

Dan-o,
you have sought to have your teachings be heard through much speaking.

IMO, you are the stand-out leader in laborious repetition within the content of your board posts.

I am just trying to shake the thinking of people who are not ready to parrot the words of the loudest mouth in the cage.

You keep your microscopic view of the Word and I'll keep my analogies and typologies and the readers will choose what works for them.

{edit}
btw,
Dan, have you answered if your teaching about the re-enactment crowd extends to their re-enacting the resurrection of their saviour by seeking the Gift of the Holy Ghost?

mizpeh · #**302** 10-04-2007, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

ah ... the 3 steppers and their analogies ... which one is it ... baptism is the death, burial ? Is repentance death? Why does Paul, Roman 6, say baptism represents all 3 ... death, burial and resurrection?

TBP, you are articulate but please understand that repeating what you believe and stating analogies and typologies that excite you ... do not doctrine make.

Dan, please explain how Romans 6 depicts baptism as the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. I've been studying and struggling to understand that chapter for awhile now and I don't see that at all esp the resurrection bit.

RevDWW · #**303** 10-04-2007, 11:55 AM

Mark 1:3 - 4 (KJV) .....Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Revelation 1:5 - Revelation 1:6 (KJV) 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen

Acts 22:10 - Acts 22:16 (KJV) 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do. 11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. 12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, 13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. 16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

What was going on here?? Surely Ananias wasn't gotten to be a "3-stepper'......

Encryptus · #**304** 10-04-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbpew

Encryptus,
Do you have to die and be buried before you can be raised to newness of life?
or
Can you just be raised to newness of life because of what your saviour did without any death or burial involving your former life?

IF you can be born a second time while leaving the first birth goverance fully alive, what kind of a stew do you think is simmering on your stove? Is governor #1 going to put out the red carpet for governor #2? Not likely.

So Encryptus,
what is the remedy that the God has provided in your life for this opportunity for double-mindedness?

Your analogy does not seem to flow sorry. But IF I understand, you are trying to have someone draw the conclusion Yes to the first question. If so I assume you are referring to equating the BHG as raised to newness of life (resurrection), and that cannot come without death and burial? Death and burial of course being repentance and water baptism. If so then by your analogy it would be IMPOSSIBLE for one to resurrect without dying and being buried, therefore no one could receive BHG before water baptism.

tbpew · #**305** 10-04-2007, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encryptus

Your analogy does not seem to flow sorry. But IF I understand, you are trying to have someone draw the conclusion Yes to the first question. If so I assume you are referring to equating the BHG as raised to newness of life (resurrection), and that cannot come without death and burial? Death and burial of course being repentance and water baptism. If so then by your analogy it would be IMPOSSIBLE for one to resurrect without dying and being buried, therefore no one could receive BHG before water baptism.

In a perfect situation, yes.

But you made it very clear in your earliest posts here that many of us have no answer for your demand that until we can EXPLAIN how Cornielus' house received the Holy Ghost, in the same manner that the Jews did, without having ALREADY been water baptised.

My answer to you is this.
God established a means for YOUR 'old man' to be crucified by following your faith into the waters of baptism.
God provides his Spirit to those who, in faith, call upon his name, desiring him to make his habitation in their heart.

The two are not mutally dependant but both operate to establish the completeness of the outcome of our Lord and Saviour's redemptive work at Calvary.

If you are fine with dragging your 'old man', alive and well, where ever you go,
AND
you have received God's Holy Spirit to lead you in all truth
then
you will either burst (leaving the whole crazy God issue for somebody else) or your double-mindedness will drive you to a place where you will eventually oppose your own self.

If you have NOT received the gift of the Holy Ghost, then double-mindedness will not be the issue you will face.

Pharoah's deal as a ruler was well served by his slaves.

You think your old carnal mindedness is just going to boogey because you confess Jesus? If you do, I'd be very careful rebuking any real devils.

God has made a way. You go ahead and choose whatever you want. Just be careful if you are teaching others that there is no remedy for the monkey on their back, just because you have grown so accustom to one on your's.

BrotherEastman · #**306** 10-04-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

ah ... the 3 steppers and their analogies ... which one is it ... baptism is the death, burial ? Is repentance death? Why does Paul, Roman 6, say baptism represents all 3 ... death, burial and resurrection?

TBP, you are articulate but please understand that repeating what you believe and stating analogies and typologies that excite you ... do not doctrine make.

I win, and your still arguing? I knew it was to good to be true.

Encryptus · #**307** 10-04-2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbpew

In a perfect situation, yes.

But you made it very clear in your earliest posts here that many of us have no answer for your demand that until we can EXPLAIN how Cornielus' house received the Holy Ghost, in the same manner that the Jews did, without having ALREADY been water baptised.

My answer to you is this.
God established a means for YOUR 'old man' to be crucified by following your faith into the waters of baptism.
God provides his Spirit to those who, in faith, call upon his name, desiring him to make his habitation in their heart.

The two are not mutally dependant but both operate to establish the completeness of the outcome of our Lord and Saviour's redemptive work at Calvary.

If you are fine with dragging your 'old man', alive and well, where ever you go,
AND
you have received God's Holy Spirit to lead you in all truth
then
you will either burst (leaving the whole crazy God issue for somebody else) or your double-mindedness will drive you to a place where you will eventually oppose your own self.

If you have NOT received the gift of the Holy Ghost, then double-mindedness will not be the issue you will face.

Pharoah's deal as a ruler was well served by his slaves.

You think your old carnal mindedness is just going to boogey because you confess Jesus? If you do, I'd be very careful rebuking any real devils.

God has made a way. You go ahead and choose whatever you want. Just be careful if you are teaching others that there is no remedy for the monkey on their back, just because you have grown so accustom to one on your's.

Once again IF I understand what you are saying (HONESTLY not trying to difficult but your syntax is very hard to follow)

We have Cornelius (and hundreds of thousands of others) getting the Holy Ghost on credit, that they will complete the work of salvation by water baptism? And if they die before completing this work they are doomed to hell, and that they are no exceptions?

Furthermore, by your logic you have a HOLY Ghost infilling an unregenerated (blood either not applied or half applied or two thirds applied depending on the individual three stepper )man?

And if one receives the BHG before water baptism by your statement you are dragging your old man until you are baptised? (But didn't Paul contend with his old man AFTER experiencing both or was he not regenerated when he penned those words?) And by extrapolation the old man therefore goes away upon water baptism?

mizpeh · #**308** 10-08-2007, 09:14 PM

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My statement was that John 3:5 is not a verse that we can use to show that agreed upon essentiality. In the quotes above it seems that you both bring an a priori assumption into the reading of the John 3. As soon as water is mentioned you assume it means baptism. But break down the conversation itself as it develops and put yourself into the shoes of the perplexed Nicodemas for a moment.

I do assume water is referring to water baptism but I'm not sure how you got that from my post on this thread.

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Nicodemas begins the dialog by commenting that no one could do the miracles that Jesus had done, "except God be with Him." Instead of responding directly to Nicodemas' assertion - and openly professing His divine identity,

How often did Jesus directly profess his divine identity? He indirectly confessed it many times but directly saying "I'm YHWH in the flesh", can't find it.

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Jesus says that you must be "born again" (or "from above). The phrase "born again" in the Greek is ambiguous; it can be understood two ways. Jesus (and especially John, by selecting this conversation as a highlight in his gospel) is presenting a fork in the road for both Nicodemas and the reader. Do we go with the meaning "again" or "above?"

We can go with both for to be born from above would mean that one would need to be born again. A new spiritual birth as opposed to the old natural birth.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Nicodemas goes with "again." "How can I enter again into my mother's womb...?" Nicodemas seems to show that what Jesus is saying is ridiculous. Nicodemas is fixated upon this world here below. He has, for whatever reasons, seemed to have eliminated the world "above" from his thinking.

I think Nicodemus was taken aback by this: Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. and by his response in verse 4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?, Nicodemus clearly took Jesus literally because he knew of no other birth but a natural birth. Yes, I agree that Nicodemus didn't consider any other type of birth even one from above.

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It's this type of thinking that Jesus wants to change. So he goes on and contrasts the things from "above" with the things from "below."

This is where we interpret this passage differently.

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The phrase "water and Spirit" is one of those contrasts. Being born from the "water" of his mother's womb was needed- just to be sitting there Nicodemas obviously had to have been born of his mother. But Jesus wants him to look beyond the earthly and look up. He must be born from "above," that is by the Spirit.

The word, and, connecting water and Spirit in verse 5 is including the two together as the spiritual birth not contrasting them. Nor is it saying you must be born of flesh and born of Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. The contrast comes in verse 6 when Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh.....a natural birth and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...a spiritual birth.

John 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Compare this with John 1:12-13. Those who are born of God are not born of the flesh. So when Jesus says a man must be born of water and of the Spirit, He is not in any way referring to a natural birth...or born of the flesh.

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How is one truly "born from above?" Well, as I said, that's the part we already agree upon, Acts 2:38.[/font][/color]

If you consider Acts 2:38 as the new birth, how come you understand John 3:5 as something else?

Bump for Pelathais.

preachtruth1ness · #**309** 10-08-2007, 10:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Ferd

I will take water baptism out of the equation when Peter does.

AMEN!!! on that one

Felicity · #**310** 10-08-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encryptus

Once again IF I understand what you are saying (HONESTLY not trying to difficult but your syntax is very hard to follow)

We have Cornelius (and hundreds of thousands of others) getting the Holy Ghost on credit, that they will complete the work of salvation by water baptism? And if they die before completing this work they are doomed to hell, and that they are no exceptions?

Furthermore, by your logic you have a HOLY Ghost infilling an unregenerated (blood either not applied or half applied or two thirds applied depending on the individual three stepper )man?

And if one receives the BHG before water baptism by your statement you are dragging your old man until you are baptised? (But didn't Paul contend with his old man AFTER experiencing both or was he not regenerated when he penned those words?) And by extrapolation the old man therefore goes away upon water baptism?

These are the oft heard typical type of arguments to which there are no satisfactory answers ever given.

Yep.

And for clarification ....... yes, I DO believe baptism in Jesus' name is the right way to be baptized and that it's essential.