Why Sunday

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No. I am saying we never read of a case where God says your outward obedience to the commandment against adultery means nothing if you do it inwardly, as he did say so against sabbaths. He always used ritual and says it meant nothing due to their sins. The ritual in itself is useless due to the sin, when that is not the case in outward refusal of adultery. Outward refusal of adultery is good and must be maintained even though the inward heart adulterates. One does not cancel or the other as useless though, when it does when rites are the subject.

Inward adultery is wrong, I agree of course, and it can Happen while outward is not taking place. But saying it is the same thing as committing adultery outwardly is not saying the outeard refusal is useless, as he says sabbath letting is useless when one sins.

How did Israel and her sister Judah commit adultery against God? What was the legal order set to give God the reason to had the bill of divorcement?

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother Avery?
Once again, what is the mysterious covenant in Hebrews 8:13 that is waxing old and ready to vanish away? I can’t seem to get an answer. It is the one that God made with the Israelites when he led them out of Egypt.
Which one is it?
It is the one that the new covenant made old. Evidently by the very sovereign will of God Himself. It is the one prophesied of in Jeremiah 31.
If it isn’t the Ten Commandments, what is it? Do tell!

Nothing mysterious.

And remember, I was the one who recommended that you ask about Hebrews 8:13. Since it can be a difficulty for anybody who does not have a clear idea about covenants and the Decalogue. They have to indicate what fits (and when):

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant,
he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

May I suggest that you simply read p. 62-64 of:

The Law and the Sabbath (1953)
Allen Walker
https://www.adventbeliefs.com/assets...alker-1953.pdf
http://www.pwlawrence.com/thebiblepr...TheSabbath.pdf

The section is part of:
Chapter 8 - The Two Covenants - p. 62-68

Thanks!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

And the reason sabbatarians will make an effort to find a though that will change the simple reading to say that the ministration of death is something OTHER THAN THE ten commandments, is because they are in the mode of looking for a loophole.

...

Also, sabbatarians ... argue that... if this was a ministration of death, EVEN THOUGH PAUL SAID IT WAS, that must mean it is okay to adulterate and murder people...

It is clear you are not reading what is written to you but are now making things up. These "arguments" you refer to have never been made by me, brother Avery, or any Sabbatarian I have ever known, read, heard, met, or even known of.

Looking for a loophole? The Pharisees were masters of loopholes, claiming higher spirituality authorised them to avoid actually doing what God said to do. Sound familiar? Because that is EXACTLY what antisabbatarians do.

[Steven Avery]

2 Corinthians 3:7-9 (AV)
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And the reason sabbatarians will make an effort to find a though that will change the simple reading to say that the ministration of death is something OTHER THAN THE ten commandments, is because they are in the mode of looking for a loophole.

As Esaias points out, this is an especially absurd straw man attempt.

Alan Walker has a superb section on the "Ministration of Death" on p. 68-69 in the section I highlighted above.
One example:

Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done;
but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest,
holy to the LORD:
whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day,
he shall surely be put to death.

The Law and the Sabbath (1953)
Allen Walker
https://www.adventbeliefs.com/assets...alker-1953.pdf
http://www.pwlawrence.com/thebiblepr...TheSabbath.pdf

The section is part of:
Chapter 9 - The Two Covenants - p. 62-68
Chapter 10 - "The Ministration of Death - p. 68-69

The ministration (or administration) of the death penalty for sabbath-breaking is not a New Testament command or teaching. Nor for adultery and other violations of the 10 commandments.

[Amanah]

https://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath...th-was-changed

History Gives Some Clues
If the change did not take place in the Scriptures or through the influence of the apostles, when and how did it happen? In order to understand this, we must understand what happened in that early church soon after the apostles passed off the stage of action. Paul had prophesied that apostasy would take place soon after his departure. He said there would be a falling away from the truth. One doesn’t have to read very far in early church history to see just how that prophecy was fulfilled. Gnosticism began to rise up under the influence of philosophers who sought to reconcile Christianity with Paganism. At the same time, a strong anti-Jewish sentiment became more widespread. Very speculative interpretations began to appear regarding some of the great doctrines of Christ and the apostles.

The Conversion of Constantine
ConstantineBy the time Constantine was established as the emperor of Rome in the early fourth century, there was a decided division in the church as a result of all these factors. I think most of you know that Constantine was the first so-called Christian emperor of the Roman Empire. The story of his conversion has become very well known to students of ancient history. He was marching forth to fight the battle of Milvian Bridge when he had some kind of vision, and saw a flaming cross in the sky. Underneath the cross were the Latin words meaning “In this sign conquer.” Constantine took this as an omen that he should be a Christian, and his army as well. He declared all his pagan soldiers to be Christians, and became very zealous to build up the power and prestige of the church. Through his influence great blocks of pagans were taken into the Christian ranks. But, friends, they were still pagan at heart, and they brought in much of the paraphernalia of sun-worship to which they continued to be devoted. We mentioned in a previous broadcast about the adoption of Christmas and Easter into the church. At the same time, many other customs were Christianized and appropriated into the practice of the church as well.

Sun Worship
You see, at that time the cult of Mithraism or sun-worship was the official religion of the Roman Empire. It stood as the greatest competitor to the new Christian religion. It had its own organization, temples, priesthood, robes—everything. It also had an official worship day on which special homage was given to the sun. That day was called “The Venerable Day of the Sun.” It was the first day of the week, and from it we get our name Sunday. When Constantine pressed his pagan hordes into the church they were observing the day of the sun for their adoration of the sun god. It was their special holy day. In order to make it more convenient for them to make the change to the new religion, Constantine accepted their day of worship, Sunday, instead of the Christian Sabbath which had been observed by Jesus and His disciples. Remember that the way had been prepared for this already by the increasing anti-Jewish feelings against those who were accused of putting Jesus to death. Those feelings would naturally condition many Christians to swing away from something which was held religiously by the Jews. It is therefore easier to understand how the change was imposed on Christianity through a strong civil law issued by Constantine as the Emperor of Rome. The very wording of that law, by the way, can be found in any reliable encyclopedia.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

2 Corinthians 3:7-9 (AV)
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

As Esaias points out, this is an especially absurd straw man attempt.

Alan Walker has a superb section on the "Ministration of Death" on p. 68-69 in the section I highlighted above.
One example:

Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done;
but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest,
holy to the LORD:
whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day,
he shall surely be put to death.



The ministration (or administration) of the death penalty for sabbath-breaking is not a New Testament command or teaching. Nor for adultery and other violations of the 10 commandments.

It is not a straw man to accuse people of looking for a loophole. A straw man is saying that you have a certain argument, and your argument is not actually that allegation at all. At best you don't know you look for loopholes. But it could also be that you know it is easier to see teen commandments in 2 cor 3 than not. Suck you actually believe it has to be saying something else and so you look for it. I did not force scripture to say anything because I had no fear or band one way or the other. I just wanted to know what Paul was saying. And when he talked about that ministration of death being engraved in stones, and talked about Moses' face shining when he was carrying those stones down from the mountain, it's pretty obvious.

Yours is another example of changing actual context. It did not say the death penalty was the administration of death. It said that the law was the administration of death. It said it was written in engraving in stone. Whete in the entire Ten Commandments does it even mention death penalty? Where was anything engraved on the tables of stone that said death penalty? I asked that because it said it was written in engraven and stones. There was a death penalty, but it's not like the natural death that you are thinking of. It was a spiritual death and sin was the killer, not any administration of Israel with men taking another man's life. That was an other parts of the law. You don't understand that the administration of death is exactly what Paul described in Romans 7. He tried to obey the last commandment to not covet, and he found that sin killed him with the law when he sought to obey. That's not the death penalty that you are talking about. But it is the death penalty that Paul spoke about because it's spiritual. It's what it's called in Ephesians chapter to be dead in trespasses and sins. That's the death penalty.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It is clear you are not reading what is written to you but are now making things up. These "arguments" you refer to have never been made by me, brother Avery, or any Sabbatarian I have ever known, read, heard, met, or even known of.

Looking for a loophole? The Pharisees were masters of loopholes, claiming higher spirituality authorised them to avoid actually doing what God said to do. Sound familiar? Because that is EXACTLY what antisabbatarians do.

Esaias, that's not what I said. Maybe I was too terse, and my intention didn't come through in my words, but what I was trying to say is that you guys reason that it can't be an administration of death because that would mean adultery is okay, which you distinctly did argue. You said that adultery and murder must be okay if in your mind we can break the 4th commandment.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Nothing mysterious.

And remember, I was the one who recommended that you ask about Hebrews 8:13. Since it can be a difficulty for anybody who does not have a clear idea about covenants and the Decalogue. They have to indicate what fits (and when):

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant,
he hath made the first old.
Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

May I suggest that you simply read p. 62-64 of:

The Law and the Sabbath (1953)
Allen Walker
https://www.adventbeliefs.com/assets...alker-1953.pdf
http://www.pwlawrence.com/thebiblepr...TheSabbath.pdf

The section is part of:
Chapter 8 - The Two Covenants - p. 62-68

Thanks!

Brother Avery, with all due respect, nobody ever goes to other pages and reads paragraphs of literature. Please present those thoughts yourself in your own words right here. I've tried to get people to do that as well, and it never works. We're engaged here,... there's enough to read right here without adding paragraph from other websites or books.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How did Israel and her sister Judah commit adultery against God? What was the legal order set to give God the reason to had the bill of divorcement?

Unfortunately, you repeatedly missing my point that I'm making and misunderstanding me. I'll blame that on myself, because it is hard to get things out in l words sometimes. Unless I'm missing what you're saying, my answer is there is adultery in the heart. Of course there is. Committing idolatry is like adultery.

What I'm trying to say is that you'll never read anything in the Bible like your outward refrain from adultery is nothing because your heart is adultrous. But you will read that sabbaths are waste of time because the heart are not right. Just saying that you'll never read that type of thing. I'm not saying adultery can't occur in the heart, and I'm not saying Idolatry is not adultery in the heart.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Brother Blume are you saying that a married man cannot inwardly commit adultery. While he is outwardly appearing faithful?

No, I'm not saying that at all. That is definitely possible. But I'm just saying you don't see the Bible compare refrains from adultery to be useless if the heart is adulteress, like you do with Sabbath being useless if adultery is in the heart.