I could name hundreds of examples of highly visible fakes in the most powerful positions within "the movement." Of course, if and when I do, I will be labeled as a bitter hater who can't forget the past and relishes failure.
If I simply say that the org is rife with hypocrisy the same folks who whine when details ARE given will whine that I am broad brushing without proof.
It's all so circular.
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I'm (sic) not cynical, I just haven't been around long enough to be Jedi mind-tricked by politics as usual. Alas, maybe in a few years I'll be beaten back into the herd. tstew
Well now your talking about evangelism practices. I have never nor will ever go to someone, at home or otherwise, to attempt to convert them. People will ask questions when they see the difference in me and I answer the questions. If your there to convert someone you should be asked to leave. I will talk with a Jehovah's witness until I see that he/she is immovable in their belief then I will let them know that there is nothing to gain by further conversation.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I think the intent of this threads origination isn't about false salvation, really, it's all about look how fake the UPC can be. The intent of this thread is dumb. I also think the ILG is getting exactly the attention she wants.
I don't know if that is the intent but for me it's irrelevant because of the outcome.
ILG is being very unfair imo. She says she was censored....none of her posts were deleted or edited. She was not banned, infracted nor a threat of one was given
She claims abuse but really all that we are doing is complaining about the constant anti UPC rhetoric.
If I wanted to I could claim they are the abusers..that's just crazy
And they also claim we are against talking about issues that might pertain to the UPC, but I said a LONG time ago we can discuss any issue without constantly going "The UPC does this and that" "In the UPC I was treated X" etc etc.
In fact I have personally addressed UPC related things in the past
The other thing I told her was it wasn't that she brings up the UPC. It's that it happens ALL THE TIME and she is one of the main ones. The rest of us are tired of it and the truth is she can't respect that
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
We all know there are fakers, because the Bible even have them and foretell there will be fakers. There's the wolves in sheep clothing and even the tares growing with the wheat.
So what's the conclusion? Because some can fake being a Christian in the eyes of the people, then anything goes?
Sure repentance can be faked, but so what? The Bible still requires it. God still requires it. So someone faking it instead of being true to themselves are only hurting themselves. We can't erase it as a requirement because someone fakes it. We can only encourage them to do it from the heart and be true. The same goes for baptism and the Holy Ghost.
And the reason those who sin in secret, aka having an affair, embezzling and other sins that are hidden for a time before being revealed or uncovered, may not be outwardly considered "out" and not "in" is because the sin is hidden, and is yet to be known or revealed. Those who outwardly do something that is identified as being wrong are easily considered "out" because their sin is now known. Think of the situation in 1 Cor. 5, with the one who was sleeping with his father's wife and it was known and Paul called it out and told the Church how to deal with such.
And no, its not always about not discerning something (although sometimes it may be.) Sometimes calling people out that are "faking" or appear to be faking can be a hasty move and takes wisdom on how to address these issues. Actions vary depending on the situation, and sometimes moving against someone before their sin is manifest can be likened unto the parable Jesus gave about the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13:29 "But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Matt. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest:.."
In the end you preach, teach, and encourage everyone to obey and follow Christ from the heart. Faking it only makes one good before man, not before God because He knows the heart.
We all know there are fakers, because the Bible even have them and foretell there will be fakers. There's the wolves in sheep clothing and even the tares growing with the wheat.
So what's the conclusion? Because some can fake being a Christian in the eyes of the people, then anything goes?
Sure repentance can be faked, but so what? The Bible still requires it. God still requires it. So someone faking it instead of being true to themselves are only hurting themselves. We can't erase it as a requirement because someone fakes it. We can only encourage them to do it from the heart and be true. The same goes for baptism and the Holy Ghost.
And the reason those who sin in secret, aka having an affair, embezzling and other sins that are hidden for a time before being revealed or uncovered, may not be outwardly considered "out" and not "in" is because the sin is hidden, and is yet to be known or revealed. Those who outwardly do something that is identified as being wrong are easily considered "out" because their sin is now known. Think of the situation in 1 Cor. 5, with the one who was sleeping with his father's wife and it was known and Paul called it out and told the Church how to deal with such.
And no, its not always about not discerning something (although sometimes it may be.) Sometimes calling people out that are "faking" or appear to be faking can be a hasty move and takes wisdom on how to address these issues. Actions vary depending on the situation, and sometimes moving against someone before their sin is manifest can be likened unto the parable Jesus gave about the wheat and the tares in Matt. 13:29 "But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Matt. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest:.."
In the end you can only preach, teach, and encourage everyone to obey and follow Christ from the heart. Faking it only makes one good before man, not before God because He knows the heart.
The difference here is you give the other churches an out by claiming they don't measure who's "in" or "out."
Again, you are twisting what I said. I gave examples of about 4 other churches that measure who is "in" and who is "out".
Again, this thread is not about all UPC'ers faking it. I never once said all UPC'ers are faking. In fact, I completely disagree that most UPC'ers are faking it. I think most are sincere Christians.
This thread is about how external rules can be used to measure who is "in" or "out" with God and if these external rules can be faked, should they be used as a measuring stick? And since people who do fake are rarely found out by discernment of the church and instead are often found out by scandal, hurting many in the church, could it be that these rules actually help fakers hide? And could less people be hurt and could there be more discernment if churches stopped using external rules as a measurement?
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
Interestingly, I have been told privately that certain people have been railroaded off the forum for talking about things like this and that someone's account was hacked after a tussle with a certain admin. I am only reporting what I was told privately. In other words, other people have concerns about being silenced when wanting to discuss issues on this forum. Just sayin'.
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
Again, you are twisting what I said. I gave examples of about 4 other churches that measure who is "in" and who is "out".
Please read my post again. I was referring to the opening post, the very first post. You didn't give any examples of any other churches until your 49th post into the thread (Yes I counted), when you posted this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
So "in" and "out"......
In the Westboro Baptist church, you must picket with a God Hates Fags sign to be "in".
In the quiverful movement you must not use birth control to be "in".
In the prosperity movement, you must believe that it is God's will for everyone to prosper financially to be "in" and you must be willing to "speak it".
In the New Thought Movement, you must believe in the metaphysical interpretation of the Bible to be "in".
Again, and anyone can read your first post, I didn't twist anything about it. You didn't list 4 others then....not til long after you were called out for singling out the UPC. Even then, it wasn't until 47 posts after the first when you finally mentioned other religions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
Again, this thread is not about all UPC'ers faking it. I never once said all UPC'ers are faking. In fact, I completely disagree that most UPC'ers are faking it. I think most are sincere Christians.
You know, I'm not sure you actually read my post, so here it is again. Note: This was about the very first post, and I never claimed you wrote "all." I did say you do accuse UPCers of faking it, which you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
Yes, the title was great until we read the very first line...
From that point on it becomes "UPC Can Fake It All." There are 4 direct references to the UPC, and the rest is about the "UPC formula" of repentance, water baptism, infilling of the Holy Ghost and its belief on standards.
There's a passing acknowledgement that it happens in all churches:
The difference here is you give the other churches an out by claiming they don't measure who's "in" or "out."
Other than that, the opening post was about "UPC Can Fake It All."
Again, nowhere did I claim "all."
And here are other posts in which you do claim UPCers fake it. Not "all," but you do claim UPCers fake it, and more than once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
It is easy to fake "salvation" as the UPC defines it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
Exactly, and my point is that the whole UPC formula can be faked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
The UPC formula can indeed be faked!
Of course, who can forget this classic line:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILG
Hmm, well it certainly sounds like they were faking!
Interestingly, I have been told privately that certain people have been railroaded off the forum for talking about things like this and that someone's account was hacked after a tussle with a certain admin. I am only reporting what I was told privately. In other words, other people have concerns about being silenced when wanting to discuss issues on this forum. Just sayin'.
You should've kept it private.
Are you seriously accusing Prax of hacking someone's account?
And let's be honest, you haven't been silenced. Not in the least. Stop acting like you're some victim who can't post without being censored.
Great Post!
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